Current Affairs John McCain - hero or Republican

[Ghoat]

Fact: US foreign policy is a main factor why Germany has received millions of refugee-applicants these last few years. Such a situation can accurately be called a crisis. McCain was a supporter of those crisis-causing policies.

Isn't that taking a very short view, or a little myopic?
During the colonial era, England invaded Afghanistan in the early 1800's, overthrew the government and replaced with a more "friendly" one - regime change. Pakistan has intervened/interfered (depending on viewpoint) to influence/change leadership for almost 200 years.
The USSR didn't like when the government was overthrown in the late 70's, and went full-scale invasion for regime change. Which brought the US (covertly-ish) into the region with the help of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - both counties heavily influenced by England as they vied against France and German for influence in the region throughout the 1800's and early 1900's.
Then of course you have the Taliban, and the US invasion in 2001 with NATO support for another regime change.
"Great Powers" have been flipping governments and disrupting societies in Afghanistan, and the entire region as loyalties and interests change since the US was a British colony!

Do I think the US policy has an impact? Absolutely. Do I think the US is trying to put forth it's best policy in the current situation? Yes I do. Do I think by "unintended consequences" the US can cause more problems than it fixes? Yep, just like every other nation prior. That's how history works, there are layers and layers of underlying issues, problems and mistakes that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Africa is just as convoluted. Civil wars, the Arab Spring and all the Western policies, religious factions, non-Western players in the region as well as China, Iran, USSR/Russia, the after-affects of WW2 - in many cases post-WWI caused more strife. These seeds have roots going back to colonialism/nationalism, in some cases decades or centuries prior. The US was an irrelevant world player, barely a regional power until 1943 or so.
Don't even get me started on the Balkans!

Understand, I'm not attacking you or even your opinion per se - US policy can really F stuff up, no doubt. But when you really look at situation that exists today, can you really ignore the historical watershed events spanning hundreds of years, or ignore the influence of recent German (or even EU) immigration policy or foreign policies of the rest of the world and such and just point to the US and say "you did this" ? Let alone attribute significant responsibility to a single US senator?

Opinion: US knows that by having policies which cause strife to as many other countries as possible they maintain their 'superpower' status, as the others have too much to deal with to catch up.

Much shorter response, promise!
I disagree the chaos in our driving national policy. But, I would simply say that all nations work for what they perceive to be their best interests. Hopefully as fairly as possible, but the point remains. Do you think Germany would enact a policy that helped France at Germany's expense? They would get tarred and feathered by their citizens. Do you think China would put any nation's interest above their own?

It's a bad cult ("we're the greatest country in the world!"), a cult which McCain supported.

I don't have a problem with thinking you live in the greatest country in the world. If you don't feel that way, why would you stay? Why would you not move to what you perceive as the greatest country in the world if possible? Or the greatest county, town or job for that matter?

That being said, the line between "Patriotism" and "Nationalism" is blurry, subjective and can be dangerous. I am proud to be an American. I am proud of my English heritage, and feel lucky on both counts. That doesn't mean I think I'm superior or entitled or such, or that I'm happy with everything America has done, is doing, or will do. That's a sycophant.

I'm an avid supporter of the USMNT, but I damn sure am not happy with what they have been doing! Sorry, that's for a different thread......

 

[dholliday]

Meh. It's no different to other mass refugee situations that have happened before. Rather than resent it because you fear a changing Germany, just accept it and get to know your new countrymen rather than speak of them as if they are terrible people.

Horrible and truly dumb comment. You project negative things about my person and it's not the first time. Also disappointing that @LinekersLegs & @RAFUH liked your post.

There's something in this attitude that is as bad as the hateful racism we see from the Far Right. It's regressive and very black/white thinking. There's no chance either of you three will ever begin to understand the big issues of today with such simplistic thinking, yet you spend so many thousands of hours complaining about the consequences of such (i.e. rise of Trump & the Far Right).

That you can post this sentence about the man whose campaign motto is literally Make America Great again whilst offering not a scrap of evidence that US foreign policy has changed for the better regarding foreign conflicts I find far more weird tbh.

How many of that list of things you were critical of McCain supporting can you equally apply to Trump?

I said ignore the war of words, mottos are words.


@Ruairi77 @Ghoat thanks for the more balanced replies, i'll have to come back to them after the weekend tho' as have to do real-life stuff for a bit

 

[ilikecheese]

Horrible and truly dumb comment. You project negative things about my person and it's not the first time. Also disappointing that @LinekersLegs & @RAFUH liked your post.

There's something in this attitude that is as bad as the hateful racism we see from the Far Right. It's regressive and very black/white thinking. There's no chance either of you three will ever begin to understand the big issues of today with such simplistic thinking, yet you spend so many thousands of hours complaining about the consequences of such (i.e. rise of Trump & the Far Right).





I said ignore the war of words, mottos are words.


@Ruairi77 @Ghoat thanks for the more balanced replies, i'll have to come back to them after the weekend tho' as have to do real-life stuff for a bit

I think it far more regressive to try to nuance a very simple argument.

 

[Ghoat]

as have to do real-life stuff for a bit

Always a nuisance, that!

 

[peteblue]

Isn't that taking a very short view, or a little myopic?
During the colonial era, England invaded Afghanistan in the early 1800's, overthrew the government and replaced with a more "friendly" one - regime change. Pakistan has intervened/interfered (depending on viewpoint) to influence/change leadership for almost 200 years.
The USSR didn't like when the government was overthrown in the late 70's, and went full-scale invasion for regime change. Which brought the US (covertly-ish) into the region with the help of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - both counties heavily influenced by England as they vied against France and German for influence in the region throughout the 1800's and early 1900's.
Then of course you have the Taliban, and the US invasion in 2001 with NATO support for another regime change.
"Great Powers" have been flipping governments and disrupting societies in Afghanistan, and the entire region as loyalties and interests change since the US was a British colony!

Do I think the US policy has an impact? Absolutely. Do I think the US is trying to put forth it's best policy in the current situation? Yes I do. Do I think by "unintended consequences" the US can cause more problems than it fixes? Yep, just like every other nation prior. That's how history works, there are layers and layers of underlying issues, problems and mistakes that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Africa is just as convoluted. Civil wars, the Arab Spring and all the Western policies, religious factions, non-Western players in the region as well as China, Iran, USSR/Russia, the after-affects of WW2 - in many cases post-WWI caused more strife. These seeds have roots going back to colonialism/nationalism, in some cases decades or centuries prior. The US was an irrelevant world player, barely a regional power until 1943 or so.
Don't even get me started on the Balkans!

Understand, I'm not attacking you or even your opinion per se - US policy can really F stuff up, no doubt. But when you really look at situation that exists today, can you really ignore the historical watershed events spanning hundreds of years, or ignore the influence of recent German (or even EU) immigration policy or foreign policies of the rest of the world and such and just point to the US and say "you did this" ? Let alone attribute significant responsibility to a single US senator?



Much shorter response, promise!
I disagree the chaos in our driving national policy. But, I would simply say that all nations work for what they perceive to be their best interests. Hopefully as fairly as possible, but the point remains. Do you think Germany would enact a policy that helped France at Germany's expense? They would get tarred and feathered by their citizens. Do you think China would put any nation's interest above their own?



I don't have a problem with thinking you live in the greatest country in the world. If you don't feel that way, why would you stay? Why would you not move to what you perceive as the greatest country in the world if possible? Or the greatest county, town or job for that matter?

That being said, the line between "Patriotism" and "Nationalism" is blurry, subjective and can be dangerous. I am proud to be an American. I am proud of my English heritage, and feel lucky on both counts. That doesn't mean I think I'm superior or entitled or such, or that I'm happy with everything America has done, is doing, or will do. That's a sycophant.

I'm an avid supporter of the USMNT, but I damn sure am not happy with what they have been doing! Sorry, that's for a different thread......

Excellent post btw.......

 

[LinekersLegs]

Horrible and truly dumb comment. You project negative things about my person and it's not the first time. Also disappointing that @LinekersLegs & @RAFUH liked your post

Yes, I did like @ilikecheese post (although @RAFUH didn’t so you might want to walk that attribution back).

Not only did I agreed with his point about it not being much different from other mass refuge situations but also because I didn’t disagree with his interpretation that “cultural-opposites” was just a nicer way of saying "terrible people". To me “cultural opposites” is a far more pejorative than say “cultural differences” as it implies a different set of basic values not just differences in language or religion. If that is an overly simplistic or overly expansive interpretation I apologise.

I said ignore the war of words, mottos are words.

Yes, I know what you said but repetition doesn't mean it makes any more sense to me lol

Why would we ignore the words of the President of the United States? True they don't mean as much as his actual actions, like relaxing rules of engagement, but surely they still influence both domestic and foreign actions? I have no idea if, as reported, Trump did want to invade Venezuela in 2017 but wouldn't it matter if he only suggested it even if he never implemented it?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/04/trump-suggested-invading-venezuela-report

You seem to take account of his words during the election where he said Afghanistan/Iraq was a mistake so why dismiss his rants on Iran? Especially since the latter are backed up by the withdrawal from the nuclear deal and a fresh imposition of sanctions including secondary ones on Europe.

I'm genuinely at a loss to understand the basis for your belief that Trump is a radical change from past presidents, perhaps after your weekend break you can describe how you think military foreign policy has improved under Trump? Or why a lot of the valid criticisms you mentioned earlier about McCain don't also apply to Trump?

 

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

Most Republicans, from John McCain to Condaleeza Rice, are decent people who do their best for their country. I may not agree with them on hardly anything but you can’t dismiss someone as scum because they view things differently to you.

 

[USABlue]

Most Republicans, from John McCain to Condaleeza Rice, are decent people who do their best for their country. I may not agree with them on hardly anything but you can’t dismiss someone as scum because they view things differently to you.

Sadly we're trending that way nowadays on both sides

 

[dholliday]

Where this heightened level of patriotism becomes dangerous is when the likes of Trump co-opt it for one culture or ethnicity at the expence of all others.
That might have been one of the reasons McCain didn't like Trump.

McCain's incessant supporting of policies which kill millions of Arabs isn't a dangerous type of patriotism then?

Isn't that taking a very short view, or a little myopic?
During the colonial era, England invaded Afghanistan in the early 1800's, overthrew the government and replaced with a more "friendly" one - regime change. Pakistan has intervened/interfered (depending on viewpoint) to influence/change leadership for almost 200 years.
The USSR didn't like when the government was overthrown in the late 70's, and went full-scale invasion for regime change. Which brought the US (covertly-ish) into the region with the help of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia - both counties heavily influenced by England as they vied against France and German for influence in the region throughout the 1800's and early 1900's.
Then of course you have the Taliban, and the US invasion in 2001 with NATO support for another regime change.
"Great Powers" have been flipping governments and disrupting societies in Afghanistan, and the entire region as loyalties and interests change since the US was a British colony!

Do I think the US policy has an impact? Absolutely. Do I think the US is trying to put forth it's best policy in the current situation? Yes I do. Do I think by "unintended consequences" the US can cause more problems than it fixes? Yep, just like every other nation prior. That's how history works, there are layers and layers of underlying issues, problems and mistakes that seemed like a good idea at the time.

Africa is just as convoluted. Civil wars, the Arab Spring and all the Western policies, religious factions, non-Western players in the region as well as China, Iran, USSR/Russia, the after-affects of WW2 - in many cases post-WWI caused more strife. These seeds have roots going back to colonialism/nationalism, in some cases decades or centuries prior. The US was an irrelevant world player, barely a regional power until 1943 or so.
Don't even get me started on the Balkans!

Understand, I'm not attacking you or even your opinion per se - US policy can really F stuff up, no doubt. But when you really look at situation that exists today, can you really ignore the historical watershed events spanning hundreds of years, or ignore the influence of recent German (or even EU) immigration policy or foreign policies of the rest of the world and such and just point to the US and say "you did this" ? Let alone attribute significant responsibility to a single US senator?

The thing about history is it's there to learn from it, so if someone in the present is repeating the same mistakes, they will bare the brunt of criticism, we won't let them off just because history made those mistakes too. History has an excuse: namely it's done. The present? We can still change what's being done.

I don't have a problem with thinking you live in the greatest country in the world. If you don't feel that way, why would you stay? Why would you not move to what you perceive as the greatest country in the world if possible? Or the greatest county, town or job for that matter?

Why would you want to aim for that? That's the brainwashing aspect of the US mentality: aim for the best, be the best. But why? The definition of best requires there to be many below you, weaker places, people, jobs. What will you do to ensure you're the best? Will you trample on those below you to get there? And what if you don't feel like you're among the best after all? Will you feel a failure? It's mentally very screwy, which explains the very screwy US domestic & foreign policy.

No, I don't want to live in the greatest country or town or have the greatest job because there's objectively no such thing. It's a nonsense, even insane, thing to want to aim for. Damaging for one's mental health.

I prefer to want to live somewhere where I feel mostly content, productive & relaxed. That's subjective, and in my case could be dozens of places. Why would I want the greatest job? What even is that? I want to do different things and have enough time to play around for fun, so that's what I've done. It's not the greatest life in the world, but it's fine. And that's cool.

Yes, I did like @ilikecheese post (although @RAFUH didn’t so you might want to walk that attribution back).

True. Disappointed in @Ruairi77 then. Disgusting reductive thinking which is as bad as actual racism, for it horribly demonises the wrong people while cheapening what was once a severe accusation, this strengthens the Far Right (who none of us like or want) as a weapon against them (accusation of racism/bigotry) has been weakened.

I think it far more regressive to try to nuance a very simple argument.

I'm not surprised you only understand very simple arguments.

I didn’t disagree with his interpretation that “cultural-opposites” was just a nicer way of saying "terrible people".

If I say “cultural-opposites”, then that's what I mean. If you're seeing something else, that's on you. Honestly thought you were a more considered thinker than that Cathy-Newman-style of so what you're saying is...

 

[ilikecheese]

McCain's incessant supporting of policies which kill millions of Arabs isn't a dangerous type of patriotism then?




The thing about history is it's there to learn from it, so if someone in the present is repeating the same mistakes, they will bare the brunt of criticism, we won't let them off just because history made those mistakes too. History has an excuse: namely it's done. The present? We can still change what's being done.




Why would you want to aim for that? That's the brainwashing aspect of the US mentality: aim for the best, be the best. But why? The definition of best requires there to be many below you, weaker places, people, jobs. What will you do to ensure you're the best? Will you trample on those below you to get there? And what if you don't feel like you're among the best after all? Will you feel a failure? It's mentally very screwy, which explains the very screwy US domestic & foreign policy.

No, I don't want to live in the greatest country or town or have the greatest job because there's objectively no such thing. It's a nonsense, even insane, thing to want to aim for. Damaging for one's mental health.

I prefer to want to live somewhere where I feel mostly content, productive & relaxed. That's subjective, and in my case could be dozens of places. Why would I want the greatest job? What even is that? I want to do different things and have enough time to play around for fun, so that's what I've done. It's not the greatest life in the world, but it's fine. And that's cool.





True. Disappointed in @Ruairi77 then. Disgusting reductive thinking which is as bad as actual racism, for it horribly demonises the wrong people while cheapening what was once a severe accusation, this strengthens the Far Right (who none of us like or want) as a weapon against them (accusation of racism/bigotry) has been weakened.




I'm not surprised you only understand very simple arguments.





If I say “cultural-opposites”, then that's what I mean. If you're seeing something else, that's on you. Honestly thought you were a more considered thinker than that Cathy-Newman-style of so what you're saying is...

Thanks for shutting down the discussion with a juvenile response.

The alt right nonsense is all about nuancing very simple and very old arguments that were once lost, but have been sprung back to life by finding a nuance that appears acceptable and even defendable.

Viewing the entire 'immigrant crisis' and the 'alt right movement' from a 40,000 ft cruising altitude is the best way to view it all.

It's far easier to simplify an argument when you view it in the big picture rather than trying to nuance every little detail like you do when you defend Peterson and try to demonize immigrants in Germany by using an inflamitory word like crisis to describe the situation.

 

[dholliday]

like you do when you try to demonize immigrants in Germany by using an inflamitory word like crisis to describe the situation.

There you go again. Horrible, really horrible. You either have no clue how to express yourself in English, or you are genuinely being a horrible person. As bad as a racist.

As if we can't use the word "crisis" without being accused of demonising immigrants. Of course it's a crisis, there's been a sudden influx of millions of people who don't speak the language, nor share the same cultural values and have no means to support themselves. Everyone names it a crisis, even the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis

Those bad racists are everywhere!

Your hateful demonising (yes, it is you who's demonising and you who's being hateful) lost the argument a long time ago, and thankfully are very much in the minority.

One example among the commentariat of many hundreds-of-thousands out there is this highest-rated comment on this article about Swedish Far-Right gains:

"What I find more astonishing than the rise of the "far-right" is the astonishing inability of the Left/progressives to even begin to recognise, let alone articulate, a solution to the problems being caused by massive immigration from countries, and cultures, completely at odds with the indigenous populations.
Simply calling people racists and fascists ( when most are not) does not cut it.
It is not fascist , or racist, to want to control immigration, and prefer to accept immigrants who have skills or a more closely aligned culture, to the current population."

Yet you insinuate everyone with the above opinion as being alt-right/racist/bigoted/prejudiced, because that makes you feel like a better person. It reeks of an unconscious moral insecurity within yourself. Frankly, it's horrible behaviour and as pathetic a mindset as it can possibly get. Indeed, as bad as the actual racist himself, for you are devalueing your fellow human beings by insinuating they are of inferior moral character. That's what the racist does, that's what you do.


Now we're here in the John McCain thread, where to get back on-topic, I blame his favoured US warmongering foreign policies for being a chief cause of the mass migrant waves to Europe, which risks the lives of those making the journey as well as causing much strain (crisis even) to whichever host country they end up in. His policies weaken the countries being attacked, causing mass refugee waves of the fit, able and (relatively) monied. This leaves those countries with the unfit, unable and poor, ultimately making these countries even less attractive for the refugees to consider returning. His policies also weaken the countries accepting the refugees/migrants, as it wouldn't be called a crisis otherwise.


I don't expect you to understand any of this, so I guess I wrote it for other people to read and mayhap take on board.

 

[ilikecheese]

There you go again. Horrible, really horrible. You either have no clue how to express yourself in English, or you are genuinely being a horrible person. As bad as a racist.

As if we can't use the word "crisis" without being accused of demonising immigrants. Of course it's a crisis, there's been a sudden influx of millions of people who don't speak the language, nor share the same cultural values and have no means to support themselves. Everyone names it a crisis, even the Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis

Those bad racists are everywhere!

Your hateful demonising (yes, it is you who's demonising and you who's being hateful) lost the argument a long time ago, and thankfully are very much in the minority.

One example among the commentariat of many hundreds-of-thousands out there is this highest-rated comment on this article about Swedish Far-Right gains:

"What I find more astonishing than the rise of the "far-right" is the astonishing inability of the Left/progressives to even begin to recognise, let alone articulate, a solution to the problems being caused by massive immigration from countries, and cultures, completely at odds with the indigenous populations.
Simply calling people racists and fascists ( when most are not) does not cut it.
It is not fascist , or racist, to want to control immigration, and prefer to accept immigrants who have skills or a more closely aligned culture, to the current population."

Yet you insinuate everyone with the above opinion as being alt-right/racist/bigoted/prejudiced, because that makes you feel like a better person. It reeks of an unconscious moral insecurity within yourself. Frankly, it's horrible behaviour and as pathetic a mindset as it can possibly get. Indeed, as bad as the actual racist himself, for you are devalueing your fellow human beings by insinuating they are of inferior moral character. That's what the racist does, that's what you do.


Now we're here in the John McCain thread, where to get back on-topic, I blame his favoured US warmongering foreign policies for being a chief cause of the mass migrant waves to Europe, which risks the lives of those making the journey as well as causing much strain (crisis even) to whichever host country they end up in. His policies weaken the countries being attacked, causing mass refugee waves of the fit, able and (relatively) monied. This leaves those countries with the unfit, unable and poor, ultimately making these countries even less attractive for the refugees to consider returning. His policies also weaken the countries accepting the refugees/migrants, as it wouldn't be called a crisis otherwise.


I don't expect you to understand any of this, so I guess I wrote it for other people to read and mayhap take on board.

My goodness. An couple of insults and a massive protestation supported by someone elses words.

I find it funny how you rail against tribalism, but at the same time believe that your German tribe is in a crisis because of the other tribes invading. It's only a crisis if you choose to view it that way.

 

[Moomin]

My goodness. An couple of insults and a massive protestation supported by someone elses words.

I find it funny how you rail against tribalism, but at the same time believe that your German tribe is in a crisis because of the other tribes invading. It's only a crisis if you choose to view it that way.

Did he say being called a racist is worse than racism?

 

[ilikecheese]

Did he say being called a racist is worse than racism?

I dunno Mooms. Apparently I can't understand what he posted and therefore it was posted into the ether for others to understand.

 

[dholliday]

This subforum isn't the Ale House where it's all jokes & needling, it's worked well because blues are taking it seriously. The level of debate on here is on par with anywhere else online. Trolling ruins that.

We can't fix stupid, tho'.


Reminds me of Gordon Brown calling that woman who asked a question on immigration a "bigot". Since then we've only had Tory governments. For those with their eyes & minds open it's been obvious for a while: this damaging trolling/stupid/hateful attitude which dismisses opposing opinion with an arrogant air of superiority is a chief cause of things like Trump/Brexit and the re-emergence of the Far Right.

This ignorant class with their almost-religious blind spots will then spend countless hours complaining about these things it has itself caused, wondering how they happened, and then gleefully draw battle-lines of two sides only, as if it's a game, defining who's on what side depending on their views on a given subject (i.e. John McCain is on their side because he opposed Trump, regardless of what else McCain stood for).

It's textbook black & white thinking. We who are educated learnt about this years ago. History tells us that kind of thinking can't lead anywhere positive. Yet here we are. Future historians will puzzle how so many apparently-educated folk played this game. One compelling theory already out there is indeed all about tribalism: this innate need of many to feel part of something, they need to feel clearly defined, and to do that they must have opposites. This innate need to belong has been amplified by the world-wide web (many eyes looking at you), and thus it has overruled education. This applies to those defining sides on both the Left & the Right.