Current Affairs Jeremy Corbyn, Russian/Czech agent ?......

Status
Not open for further replies.
I didn't include the rest as it was primarily about how immigration has changed the town, and how the townsfolk think about immigration (as you'd expect from a project concerned with immigration).

The part you included would suggest Hull is a government success story

The part you omitted gives the context for both the City population growth (driven by immigration) and for the financial turn around (foreign investment) and the reversal of the dereliction in the poorer areas of Hull (immigration combined with those immigrants setting up businesses in those areas).

All about context and how you want a article to be perceived and what point you are trying to make i guess...
 
As a local, what are your thoughts on this piece? It's from the national conversation on immigration and focuses specifically on Hull.

http://nationalconversation.uk/hull-where-regeneration-has-accompanied-immigration/

"Hull was once the UK’s third largest port. But fishing quotas, containerisation, the loss of manufacturing industry, together with poor road and rail links dealt Hull a severe blow. Jobs were lost and people moved away dried up much of the commerce in this once thriving city. In 1931 Hull’s population stood at 309,000, but by 2001 it had fallen to 244,000. People continued to leave Hull at a time when other northern cities were seeing a reversal of their population decline and were growing. By 2009, Hull was the UK’s poorest city in terms of average weekly wages, its housing stock was dirt cheap and its schools were under-performing.

Decades of decline have now started to be reversed, with the city centre and the old docks seeing considerable regeneration. There has also been recent investment from large companies such as Siemens. Hull was the UK City of Culture in 2017 which brought many visitors and jobs to the city, as well as £100 million for civic improvements. Most of the citizens’ panel had attended City of Culture events which seem to have contributed to a growing civic pride in the city."

Is that a fair representation or are they factually wrong in some way?

I'll start to answer some of the things that was in the article by going back to the 1980s when I lived in London. I met many people from all over England, Scotland and a few from Wales. The most people I met were from Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow. I did meet people from Hull but they were down for the Rugby League cup final on August bank holiday. Most went every year for the event and made a weekend of it and they still do. In 1980 the two teams met and Hull Kingston Rovers beat Hull FC.

It wasn't until I was leaving London in April 1988, that I met a bloke in a pub who was from Hull. We had been up the previous October and bought a house outright for 16 grand, our 1 bed flat in Harlsden sold for 50 grand after we bought it for 40 grand 18 months previous and with my redundancy money from Ford's we could buy this house. He told me all about Hull the good areas and the bad ones, not surprised as I was brought up in Netherton, Bootle and lived in Kirkby and Wavertree. I asked him why didn't I meet more Hull people in London and he couldn't really answer it. The cheapness of the city amazed me and the wife. Which is one reason not many people leave. The drop from the 1930 to now was similar to all major cities. The population stabilised in the late 1980s.

A good many students stay in Hull after they graduate and with the increase in numbers means more stay overall which has altered the graduate to population ratio. The city is overwhelmingly a working class city with very few middle class enclaves, most professionals move out to Beverley or to other outer places just outside the City boundary in East Yorkshire. There is a lot of council estates dotted around the city and up to the boundary. There was a programme on Radio 4 last year interviewing those young people who left for university in other cities, and they are returning in ever increasing numbers whereas before those that left, few in the 1980s and 1990s until the explosion in university numbers, most stayed away and stayed up north rather than going south. I went to Beijing and Australia over the Christmas period and New Year and I was surprised by how many people I talked too, who said they know someone who had emigrated to Australia. It seems like those that leave Hull, half go abroad.

The area we moved to was almost exclusively white which was strange after multi cultural London. The only people of colour I saw were Asian shop owners. You saw very very few non white people in the city. That was until the Kosovan crisis in the late 1990s when Hull took in a lot of refugees mostly males. This caused tension in the city and there were numerous 'issues' with a fair few scraps.

Most settled around an area in Hull - Beverley Road/ Newland Avenue/Princes Avenue which is where the University is so there are a lot of houses/flats to rent. The added influx meant that there became less and less derelict houses. This meant there were more people around and local people felt the area was getting better. The upshot was that they brought their cafe culture with them and one gentleman got help and opened a cafe in Newland Avenue, - a Kopite with his lfc flag, which was a dying shopping street and the shop keepers were always moaning and complaining about something or other, even though it was close to the University.

Another notable observation was that they started to frequent the local park which had its fair share of white drinkers. As most of those that arrived were 'barred' from working they would hang around. Some people did feel threatened seeing so many non white faces but also the size of the groups. They would congregate in parks and the city centre. Those that frequented the parks would play football and this seemed to encourage more and more people into the parks as there were less and less drinkers who moved elsewhere. The parks in Hull are fantastic, and you are never more than a stones throw from one and there is always loads of families with children in them and they don't get vandalised as they as are respected by people. Which makes Hull a good place to bring up kid's. As far as the schools go, as an ex secondary school history teacher, they are no different than those in working class Bootle.

The area around Newland Avenue saw an increase in shops turned into cafes mostly by those from Kosovo and the influx of people from the middle east. The cafe culture had arrived to Hull with a vengeance.The upshot is that you can't move for cafes and they are always have loads of people in them as they attract loads of Hull people and the students got attracted to them. Now the area's shops are open for business like never before as east Europeans arrived and open their shops. This enabled a 'boom' in empty shops occupation and revitalised some areas.

From a stretch from Newland Avenue to Princes Avenue to Spring Bank - mentioned in the article - cafes, restaurants of all nationalities, pubs have opened. This has taken trade from the city centre and the odd thing is that while the city centre is dead in the evening Newland Ave. Princes Ave and Spring Bank are busy thriving, even at the weekends. That area is the 'place to go' so much so that Stagecoach extend bus routes to take into account this.

All the immigrant communities that have come to Hull has made a valuable contribution to the city and this is recognise by most people in Hull. At university my dissertation was on the Irish in mid nineteenth century Kingston-upon-Hull. Hull was unique in the country as three of the most prominent people in the City the owner of the local newspaper - The Hull Advertiser - , the chief of police and the medical office were all Irish. Hull had the 10th largest Irish population and they were very much welcomed and Hull never saw any of the anti Irish incidents that occurred in other cities. So acceptance of others from different places is not unusual. Scousers are quite liked in Hull and have been for a long time as the two cities shared not only the docks but other industries and would unite when they were after a pay rise or took industrial action.

The city has the feel of optimism after the city of culture but it was there before that was in no small part due to immigration. The people of Hull are the biggest critics of Hull but this is changing and people feel a lot more positive about the city. Yes, they were and still are complains about how more people put more strain on the health service. But there has been money put in to opening health centres in all areas and not just where there is more immigrants. The influx of East Europeans has led to an increase in families and that has resulted in school numbers increasing and the employment of more teachers and non teaching staff. Volunteering overall for the City of Culture and for every event, outstripped how many they said they would like and a good many are still doing this on a voluntary basis.

Immigration has had a very positive affect on the city. Yes there are those that don't like immigrants and make it known but as soon as there is an incident people rally around. My wife helps out at Hull for Refugees and they get loads of support from people and raise money, send clothes and toys to France and Greece. At car boot sales they do well with no comments about 'not helping those' for instance. Organised events are always packed and there are learn English classes that has loads of volunteers.

The job market is very fluent and a lot of immigrants get work through agencies or are employed in the shops and cafes. You will hardly hear people say 'they are taking our jobs' mostly because they do the jobs that some people not working don't want the cleaning, health care, low paid etc.. There are a lot of minibuses that go over the bridge to Lincolnshire to pick the fruit and veg and also to east Yorkshire. They are the pickers and packers that not many people want to do.And as a result spend money in the city adding to economic activity.

As that report says, "Most local residents have made the association between migration into Hull, investment and a reversal of the city’s decline. Greater prosperity has had a positive impact on most people in Hull and contributed to a growing and inclusive civil pride in the city. We felt that our visit to Hull showed how regeneration can help improve community relations where its benefits are shared fairly".

Hope this gives you a better incite into Hull. Why the majority of people voted to leave the EU, was certainly not down to just they don't want 'those Poles' in the city or country. Immigration was an issue as was local services, the roads, the NHS etc. as if it was a general election. And a lot of people voted to leave to give, 'that Tory Cameron a good kicking'.
 
The part you included would suggest Hull is a government success story

The part you omitted gives the context for both the City population growth (driven by immigration) and for the financial turn around (foreign investment) and the reversal of the dereliction in the poorer areas of Hull (immigration combined with those immigrants setting up businesses in those areas).

All about context and how you want a article to be perceived and what point you are trying to make i guess...

I doubt the government would have much of an input either way to be honest. I spoke with the in-laws btw and they happily ceded that despite them having lived through the time, you know better than them about their history.
 
I'll start to answer some of the things that was in the article by going back to the 1980s when I lived in London. I met many people from all over England, Scotland and a few from Wales. The most people I met were from Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Glasgow. I did meet people from Hull but they were down for the Rugby League cup final on August bank holiday. Most went every year for the event and made a weekend of it and they still do. In 1980 the two teams met and Hull Kingston Rovers beat Hull FC.

It wasn't until I was leaving London in April 1988, that I met a bloke in a pub who was from Hull. We had been up the previous October and bought a house outright for 16 grand, our 1 bed flat in Harlsden sold for 50 grand after we bought it for 40 grand 18 months previous and with my redundancy money from Ford's we could buy this house. He told me all about Hull the good areas and the bad ones, not surprised as I was brought up in Netherton, Bootle and lived in Kirkby and Wavertree. I asked him why didn't I meet more Hull people in London and he couldn't really answer it. The cheapness of the city amazed me and the wife. Which is one reason not many people leave. The drop from the 1930 to now was similar to all major cities. The population stabilised in the late 1980s.

A good many students stay in Hull after they graduate and with the increase in numbers means more stay overall which has altered the graduate to population ratio. The city is overwhelmingly a working class city with very few middle class enclaves, most professionals move out to Beverley or to other outer places just outside the City boundary in East Yorkshire. There is a lot of council estates dotted around the city and up to the boundary. There was a programme on Radio 4 last year interviewing those young people who left for university in other cities, and they are returning in ever increasing numbers whereas before those that left, few in the 1980s and 1990s until the explosion in university numbers, most stayed away and stayed up north rather than going south. I went to Beijing and Australia over the Christmas period and New Year and I was surprised by how many people I talked too, who said they know someone who had emigrated to Australia. It seems like those that leave Hull, half go abroad.

The area we moved to was almost exclusively white which was strange after multi cultural London. The only people of colour I saw were Asian shop owners. You saw very very few non white people in the city. That was until the Kosovan crisis in the late 1990s when Hull took in a lot of refugees mostly males. This caused tension in the city and there were numerous 'issues' with a fair few scraps.

Most settled around an area in Hull - Beverley Road/ Newland Avenue/Princes Avenue which is where the University is so there are a lot of houses/flats to rent. The added influx meant that there became less and less derelict houses. This meant there were more people around and local people felt the area was getting better. The upshot was that they brought their cafe culture with them and one gentleman got help and opened a cafe in Newland Avenue, - a Kopite with his lfc flag, which was a dying shopping street and the shop keepers were always moaning and complaining about something or other, even though it was close to the University.

Another notable observation was that they started to frequent the local park which had its fair share of white drinkers. As most of those that arrived were 'barred' from working they would hang around. Some people did feel threatened seeing so many non white faces but also the size of the groups. They would congregate in parks and the city centre. Those that frequented the parks would play football and this seemed to encourage more and more people into the parks as there were less and less drinkers who moved elsewhere. The parks in Hull are fantastic, and you are never more than a stones throw from one and there is always loads of families with children in them and they don't get vandalised as they as are respected by people. Which makes Hull a good place to bring up kid's. As far as the schools go, as an ex secondary school history teacher, they are no different than those in working class Bootle.

The area around Newland Avenue saw an increase in shops turned into cafes mostly by those from Kosovo and the influx of people from the middle east. The cafe culture had arrived to Hull with a vengeance.The upshot is that you can't move for cafes and they are always have loads of people in them as they attract loads of Hull people and the students got attracted to them. Now the area's shops are open for business like never before as east Europeans arrived and open their shops. This enabled a 'boom' in empty shops occupation and revitalised some areas.

From a stretch from Newland Avenue to Princes Avenue to Spring Bank - mentioned in the article - cafes, restaurants of all nationalities, pubs have opened. This has taken trade from the city centre and the odd thing is that while the city centre is dead in the evening Newland Ave. Princes Ave and Spring Bank are busy thriving, even at the weekends. That area is the 'place to go' so much so that Stagecoach extend bus routes to take into account this.

All the immigrant communities that have come to Hull has made a valuable contribution to the city and this is recognise by most people in Hull. At university my dissertation was on the Irish in mid nineteenth century Kingston-upon-Hull. Hull was unique in the country as three of the most prominent people in the City the owner of the local newspaper - The Hull Advertiser - , the chief of police and the medical office were all Irish. Hull had the 10th largest Irish population and they were very much welcomed and Hull never saw any of the anti Irish incidents that occurred in other cities. So acceptance of others from different places is not unusual. Scousers are quite liked in Hull and have been for a long time as the two cities shared not only the docks but other industries and would unite when they were after a pay rise or took industrial action.

The city has the feel of optimism after the city of culture but it was there before that was in no small part due to immigration. The people of Hull are the biggest critics of Hull but this is changing and people feel a lot more positive about the city. Yes, they were and still are complains about how more people put more strain on the health service. But there has been money put in to opening health centres in all areas and not just where there is more immigrants. The influx of East Europeans has led to an increase in families and that has resulted in school numbers increasing and the employment of more teachers and non teaching staff. Volunteering overall for the City of Culture and for every event, outstripped how many they said they would like and a good many are still doing this on a voluntary basis.

Immigration has had a very positive affect on the city. Yes there are those that don't like immigrants and make it known but as soon as there is an incident people rally around. My wife helps out at Hull for Refugees and they get loads of support from people and raise money, send clothes and toys to France and Greece. At car boot sales they do well with no comments about 'not helping those' for instance. Organised events are always packed and there are learn English classes that has loads of volunteers.

The job market is very fluent and a lot of immigrants get work through agencies or are employed in the shops and cafes. You will hardly hear people say 'they are taking our jobs' mostly because they do the jobs that some people not working don't want the cleaning, health care, low paid etc.. There are a lot of minibuses that go over the bridge to Lincolnshire to pick the fruit and veg and also to east Yorkshire. They are the pickers and packers that not many people want to do.And as a result spend money in the city adding to economic activity.

As that report says, "Most local residents have made the association between migration into Hull, investment and a reversal of the city’s decline. Greater prosperity has had a positive impact on most people in Hull and contributed to a growing and inclusive civil pride in the city. We felt that our visit to Hull showed how regeneration can help improve community relations where its benefits are shared fairly".

Hope this gives you a better incite into Hull. Why the majority of people voted to leave the EU, was certainly not down to just they don't want 'those Poles' in the city or country. Immigration was an issue as was local services, the roads, the NHS etc. as if it was a general election. And a lot of people voted to leave to give, 'that Tory Cameron a good kicking'.

Thank you. That '85 CC final was a cracker btw.
 
I doubt the government would have much of an input either way to be honest. I spoke with the in-laws btw and they happily ceded that despite them having lived through the time, you know better than them about their history.

In that phone call did they explain the election results from 35 which saw an overwhelming support in the Sudetenland for the Nazi backed party mate, or where they too busy being sarcastic? Did they also perhaps have any time during the call to explain the numerous Historical accounts - both ones at the time (now history) and later books which showed that the Germans where indeed welcomed by a majority in those regions.

In a less confrontational tone though, they have their recollections of the time, unless they are both in their 90's, then they where no more than children at the time of 38' as it was 80 years ago, ask me when i am 90 what the mood was in 1980 when we went to war with Argentina i am pretty sure i won't have a bloody clue if i am relying on my memory as i was just a kid at the time. I'm not calling them liars mate, they recall what they recall, but every bit of historical record, footage, reports at the time and post suggest the Germans in that particular region where indeed welcomed by the 'majority' - glad to see your in laws where not in that majority (a rarity if they are from German stock as well)

Common sense alone would tell you that a minority population inside a country who had the large majority population inside the region we are talking of, and which region until 20 years earlier had been part of Germany - would be in favour of rejoining, in fact it would be exceptionally strange if the region hadn't wanted to rejoin in fact.


For what it's worth do you have any Austrian family mate, or mates over there too, they can tell me how the Austrians where not in favour and welcoming of the Germans also :)
 
Thank you. That '85 CC final was a cracker btw.


By the way spoke to my Great gran in law - her husband was shot three separate times by the Germans during the war and survived, she has no knowledge whatsoever about if the Sudetenland welcomed the Germans or not :)
 
In that phone call did they explain the election results from 35 which saw an overwhelming support in the Sudetenland for the Nazi backed party mate, or where they too busy being sarcastic? Did they also perhaps have any time during the call to explain the numerous Historical accounts - both ones at the time (now history) and later books which showed that the Germans where indeed welcomed by a majority in those regions.

In a less confrontational tone though, they have their recollections of the time, unless they are both in their 90's, then they where no more than children at the time of 38' as it was 80 years ago, ask me when i am 90 what the mood was in 1980 when we went to war with Argentina i am pretty sure i won't have a bloody clue if i am relying on my memory as i was just a kid at the time. I'm not calling them liars mate, they recall what they recall, but every bit of historical record, footage, reports at the time and post suggest the Germans in that particular region where indeed welcomed by the 'majority' - glad to see your in laws where not in that majority (a rarity if they are from German stock as well)

Common sense alone would tell you that a minority population inside a country who had the large majority population inside the region we are talking of, and which region until 20 years earlier had been part of Germany - would be in favour of rejoining, in fact it would be exceptionally strange if the region hadn't wanted to rejoin in fact.


For what it's worth do you have any Austrian family mate, or mates over there too, they can tell me how the Austrians where not in favour and welcoming of the Germans also :)

Henlein was a lying toad who hoodwinked a lot of people, not least Chamberlain himself. To extrapolate from that that the Czech people welcomed being invaded is frankly bonkers, or that they don't have justifiable anger at their fate being decided upon at Munich with Benes not even warranting a seat in the room.
 
Henlein was a lying toad who hoodwinked a lot of people, not least Chamberlain himself. To extrapolate from that that the Czech people welcomed being invaded is frankly bonkers, or that they don't have justifiable anger at their fate being decided upon at Munich with Benes not even warranting a seat in the room.

Daladier was the worst of the bunch in terms of selling out the Czechs mate - in my opinion anyway.

I've never once said that the Czech people welcomed being invaded mate, by which i mean the 7m or so in the country who where not part of the 3.5m ethnic German population. The population of Czechoslovakia outside of the Sudetenland and a decent sized minority inside of it (hence why about 250-300k fled when the Germans 'annexed' the region, and they would have been absolutely horrified at the events as the unfolded - especially given that not only did it mean they had been effectively sold out by all allies, but that they had also given up any semblance of defence against the Germans jsut taking the country - given that all of defensive line against Germany was located within the Sudetenland.

Totally agree about Henlein btw, like most of the pro Nazi party heads in countries later occupied, as bad or worse than some far more familiar names amongst the inner circle of Hitler as they where actually doing it to their own peoples

As a whole not a shadow of a doubt that the majority of Czechs - in fact a large majority wanted nothing to do with Germany, but inside the region we are talking about the majority was German - and the majority was in favour of it, one doesn't discount the other.

Similarly - i 100% believe the majority within Crimea wanted to be reincorporated into Russia, whilst also that as a whole the majority of Ukraine would want nothing to do with being part of Russia again
 
Daladier was the worst of the bunch in terms of selling out the Czechs mate - in my opinion anyway.

I've never once said that the Czech people welcomed being invaded mate, by which i mean the 7m or so in the country who where not part of the 3.5m ethnic German population. The population of Czechoslovakia outside of the Sudetenland and a decent sized minority inside of it (hence why about 250-300k fled when the Germans 'annexed' the region, and they would have been absolutely horrified at the events as the unfolded - especially given that not only did it mean they had been effectively sold out by all allies, but that they had also given up any semblance of defence against the Germans jsut taking the country - given that all of defensive line against Germany was located within the Sudetenland.

Totally agree about Henlein btw, like most of the pro Nazi party heads in countries later occupied, as bad or worse than some far more familiar names amongst the inner circle of Hitler as they where actually doing it to their own peoples

As a whole not a shadow of a doubt that the majority of Czechs - in fact a large majority wanted nothing to do with Germany, but inside the region we are talking about the majority was German - and the majority was in favour of it, one doesn't discount the other.

Similarly - i 100% believe the majority within Crimea wanted to be reincorporated into Russia, whilst also that as a whole the majority of Ukraine would want nothing to do with being part of Russia again

In respect of the Crimea, Jeremy Corbyn didn’t utter any condemnation of Russia......
 
In respect of the Crimea, Jeremy Corbyn didn’t utter any condemnation of Russia......

He stated categorically that Russia had violated Ukrainian sovereignty over annexing Crimea mate.

That's a condemnation to me

Did he also comment on the expansion of NATO - against the signed agreements they made btw, was a provocation and catalyst, also yes he did, and only a fool would think NATO expanding towards the Russian borders wasn't provocative.
 
'Categorically' is pushing it... It was a throwaway line and then he basically blamed western expansionism for the whole thing.

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news-comm...ind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp

"Yes, yes, Russia was a bit naughty... BUT THE WEST WERE PURE EVIL AND MADE IT HAPPEN!"

Same old Corbyn.

Thing is mate, what a lot don't like about Corbyn is he often does state uncomfortable truths.

The NATO expansion into regions they signed agreements not to with Russia, is provocation. Same way that the Cuban missile crisis was russian provocation of the USA and same way the USA placing missiles in turkey was to the then USSR.

The entire relationship from the 50s onwards has been one long serious of one side trying to provoke a reaction from the other.

Does it justify Crimea/Ukraine, well that's an entirely different discussion. Ukraine is really as divided s country as you could have gotten before all this between the Pro russian - ethnic russian regions and the rest of the country, was always s powder keg waiting to go off, both sides the west then Russia ensured with their actions that it did.
 
Thing is mate, what a lot don't like about Corbyn is he often does state uncomfortable truths.

The NATO expansion into regions they signed agreements not to with Russia, is provocation. Same way that the Cuban missile crisis was russian provocation of the USA and same way the USA placing missiles in turkey was to the then USSR.

The entire relationship from the 50s onwards has been one long serious of one side trying to provoke a reaction from the other.

Does it justify Crimea/Ukraine, well that's an entirely different discussion. Ukraine is really as divided s country as you could have gotten before all this between the Pro russian - ethnic russian regions and the rest of the country, was always s powder keg waiting to go off, both sides the west then Russia ensured with their actions that it did.

Hate making constant comparisons to Hitler and Germany, but I have to. The Sudetenland annexation was also 'provoked', as was the further annexation of the entirety of Czechoslovakia.

If you want to find excuses, you always can, but ultimately a modern day country annexed a portion of another country without military confrontation or without being a reparation for a lost war. That's an act of aggression, not defence. They did not respect sovereign borders.

The other thing with this view that I find mad is that you'll excuse an action like that by Russia - literally stealing part of a foreign country - as 'provoked', yet if Russia back chemical weapon attacks and assassinations using nerve agents, then the UK isn't seen as 'provoked' and any response, even a targeted missile strike, is a 'war crime'. Baffling.
 
Hate making constant comparisons to Hitler and Germany, but I have to. The Sudetenland annexation was also 'provoked', as was the further annexation of the entirety of Czechoslovakia.

If you want to find excuses, you always can, but ultimately a modern day country annexed a portion of another country without military confrontation or without being a reparation for a lost war. That's an act of aggression, not defence. They did not respect sovereign borders.

The other thing with this view that I find mad is that you'll excuse an action like that by Russia - literally stealing part of a foreign country - as 'provoked', yet if Russia back chemical weapon attacks and assassinations using nerve agents, then the UK isn't seen as 'provoked' and any response, even a targeted missile strike, is a 'war crime'. Baffling.

Ok I'll keep this short, Crimea was part of Russia for nearly 200 tears, long before the Soviets and the formation of the USSR, during the time if the USSR the Soviets redrew effectively the borders of Ukraine to then include Crimea, as all was part of the USSR it at that time meant nothing in reality besides a political gesture in reality.

Once the USSR broke up however you're then left with the situation if the redrwawn border of Ukraine containing a part of Russia, and strategically a vitally important one for russian defense and naval operations, then NATO makes moves to incorporate Ukraine into its fold - despite signed agreements they would never seek to include former USSR countries in it, agreements made in the breaking up of the USSR, ones they had already breached in the Baltic states without the Russians redoinding to that provocation. Crimea was the west pushing one step too far and was predictable what would happen.

Do I excuse the action - maybe, maybe not, but what I do is understand why it happened.

As for the two situations involving the UK, the chemical attack has already had major doubt cast on it by an American mediaboutket which is actually pro trump and by a report from Fisk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Welcome

Join the Everton conversation today.
Fewer ads, full access, completely free.

🛒 Visit Shop

Support Grand Old Team by checking out our latest Everton gear!
Back
Top