Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

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But this is the reality in Palestine - people are worried about the country slipping into the chaos they see in neighbouring states.

Mossad are certainly fingers crossed hoping that it does. How else could you legitimize hundreds of billions in military foreign aid? You need an enemy. The best thing for Israel is the chaos surrounding it. Especially with the certain groups who have plans for expansion.
 
@BigMick
You say it pains you to post such things yet constantly post material that absolves Israel and blames Palestine for the mess they’re in. I generally counter these posts which you ignore.

Perhaps you believe you’re impartial but your posts massively suggest otherwise
Ok Noisy I don't want to fall out with you over this. I don't believe I do as you imply - I think it's more reflective of your (understandable) bias, though I am happy to accept that I have not always made myself clear enough on some occasions.

For instance, when I mentioned the two major worries for the Palestinian people being a 3rd intifada and the danger of civil war - you might say 'what about the occupation?' - with good reason. My answer to that is that they do not 'worry' about the occupation because they've lived with it since 1967! They may hate it and want it to end, but they've seen it all before so don't 'worry' about it.

I think I've posted several items recently that criticise Israel and defend the Palestinians. The post about voting in Jerusalem - if the Palestinians vote in large numbers that will cause enormous problems for Israel who regard the whole of Jerusalem as their capital. Ans all without firing a bullet!

My post about pay for slay defend the Palestinians in the penultimate paragraph, while I also call Smotrich 'stupid'.

I'm critical of Ben-Gvir over the Palestinian flag and mention a way to fight against it.

I could go on, but have got better things to do.

I also think it important to post about things like political prisoners in Palestine prisons and security co-ordination between the PA and Israel - you and I may know about such things but others will be unaware.

Anyway, I've come up with an idea that might make it clear where I stand - I'll make a list of things I'm in favour of and things I'm against and I'll post it on here in a few days.
 

The new measures also include depriving an attacker's family members of residency and social security rights...

...the measures will revoke the rights to social security of "the families of terrorists that support terrorism", the security cabinet said.
The proposals are in step with proposals from Mr Netanyahu's far-right political allies, who allowed him to return to power last month.
These type of laws never have the effect that people believe it will have, or at least in the long-term. It also ignores the elephant in the room of indoctrination.

One of the attackers was thirteen years old, which is a clear sign of a child being radicalised. Should his family bear responsibility if they weren't involved?
 
Good old religion doing it's thing as per

A simplification of the whole situation of course, but take the religious aspect out of this and it becomes an argument over who has the right to live where, and those arguments can usually be easier to settle if you don't have the spectre of an angry God who is going to punish you for not getting the outcome he supposedly wants hanging over you
 
I imagine the terrible events of last weekend were widely reported in the UK media so I would hope there is no need for me to bring them to anyone's attention.

The second Jerusalem shooter was just 13 years old. He caught a bus from his home to the Old City where he hid behind a row of parked cars and shot at a group of passing Jews that included children even younger than himself.

He left behind a message for his mother: “Allah, or victory, or martyrdom. Forgive me, mother, you’re going to be proud of me.”

Just a boy trying to make his mum proud.

One of the first paramedics to reach both shootings was Fadi Dekidek who, like the shooters, is an Arab from East Jerusalem. He said, "The difference between a culture that glorifies terror and one that works hard to heal is education," explaining that depending on where their home is located, children in East Jerusalem receive either an Israeli education or one that follows the PA curriculum.

Fadi also teaches his medical skills to youngsters in East Jerusalem. “There are some 80 young volunteers already, and some 250 Arabs who have learned it as well and save lives." He praised the organisation he works for where Jews and Arabs work alongside each other.

“Jews save Arabs; Arabs save Jews. I think it's an example for the whole world.”

A couple of days later a Jewish woman in the maternity ward of a hospital in Northern Israel refused to share a room with a Palestinian woman, complaining that she didn't was 'frightened to share a room with a terrorist'. The hospital, which pointed out that both women were treated by staff comprising both Jewish and Arab doctors, nurses and midwives, refused to accede to her demands, but the following day the Palestinian woman asked to be moved because of the bitter atmosphere and tension.

Her husband, himself a doctor in an Israeli hospital, said, "We felt shocked. I think there are certain people who have an unjustified fear to be with people that are different, and I have only sympathy for these kinds of people. That woman, it shows her personal views, but she doesn’t have the right to request that other people leave the room in a hospital, and that’s what the hospital staff explained to her.

We are all citizens of the same country. We need to live together in peace because we don’t have any other country or place to live in. It’s really a shame that relations are experiencing a downturn. I have nothing against that woman.”

The belief that all Palestinians are terrorist supporters or even supporters of the 'armed struggle' is one that I see with increasing frequency in Israel, even amongst a few of the people I regard as being otherwise rational and decent. There's a similar belief amongst western 'Palestinian supporters' that all Palestinians support the 'armed struggle', and again that includes some otherwise decent and rational people, not just the racists.

The words of the husband and of Fadi Dekidek are just the latest amongst many that expose that belief as a lie.

The voices of hate are always given a platform for their lies and destructive views. The voices of peacemakers like these need amplifying in Palestine, in Israel and in the west.
 


These type of laws never have the effect that people believe it will have, or at least in the long-term. It also ignores the elephant in the room of indoctrination.

One of the attackers was thirteen years old, which is a clear sign of a child being radicalised. Should his family bear responsibility if they weren't involved?
Agree with you about the laws Phil. if anything I believe they will be counterproductive.

On indoctrination I wouldn't blame the family - it runs far deeper than that.
 
Agree with you about the laws Phil. if anything I believe they will be counterproductive.

On indoctrination I wouldn't blame the family - it runs far deeper than that.
Oh, it does. But, without knowing the fine details it's hard to judge, but you'd suspect that his parents wouldn't have asked their son to go and die as a martyr.

Hence why I suspect the indoctrination would have come from elsewhere, yet whoever is to blame deserves a strict punishment.
 
Good old religion doing it's thing as per

A simplification of the whole situation of course, but take the religious aspect out of this and it becomes an argument over who has the right to live where, and those arguments can usually be easier to settle if you don't have the spectre of an angry God who is going to punish you for not getting the outcome he supposedly wants hanging over you
Fair enough Mikey but unfortunately it's impossible to take the religious aspect out of it. In fact I'd say one of the mistakes western peacemakers have made over the years is to underestimate the religious aspect of the situation. The reasonable - and there are some on both sides - religious leaders have a role to play, as some try to do.
 
Oh, it does. But, without knowing the fine details it's hard to judge, but you'd suspect that his parents wouldn't have asked their son to go and die as a martyr.

Hence why I suspect the indoctrination would have come from elsewhere, yet whoever is to blame deserves a strict punishment.
Sadly Phil I could quote you many examples of parents celebrating their child's death as a martyr, although I know for certain that some of them were forced to say such things by the authorities while crying inside. The glorification of martyrdom and the teaching of it as an ideal to be attained begins in school - it's part of the reason why even the EU, normally rightly supportive of the Palestinian cause, has three times withheld funding for education in recent years.

An example of indoctrination is this from just 2 hours before the first shooting when the PA TV broadcast, as usual, the Friday sermon from al Aqsa Mosque. This is an extract from it:

"Allah in heaven has given our people permission to wage Jihad, to fight. Once Allah's permission has been given no further permission is needed - not from any international entity and not from anyone else - since this decision comes from Allah himself.
'Live free and proud or die as a martyr' is a saying passed down to us from our parents and their parents, and that we learned from our religion and our beloved Prophet Muhammad.
'They shall fight for the sake of Allah, and they shall kill and be killed.' That is a promise He took upon himself in the Torah, in the gospels, in the Quran."

About 18 months ago the shooter posted on his Facebook page: “Who says we want peace? We want war without end.” I've no idea if he saw that sermon - if he was religious there's a good chance he did - and if so he may have interpreted it as giving him 'permission' to carry out his attack.

Just to add that Israeli education is far from perfect either - the main problem there is the total lack of teaching about Arab culture and history, despite being surrounded by Arab countries, and a limited teaching of Arabic, though that has improved marginally in the last couple of years.
 
The Israeli raid in Jenin that resulted in nine deaths, including one innocent person, brought an announcement from the PA that they were ending the security coordination with Israel that I mentioned in a previous post. The announcement was taken seriously by most of the western media but greeted with scepticism by the Palestinian people. Sure enough, the PA informed the US delegation that visited the region last week that they've not suspended anything essential to security and would return to full normality as soon as possible.

That is a sensible decision as complete cessation of coordination would have affected the PA more than it would the Israelis. To underline that coordination is still ongoing, three days ago the PA arrested a prominent lawyer on suspicion of providing funding for the Lions' Den militia, while the next day saw Israel arrested three West Bank leaders of Islamic Jihad - not the gunmen but the men behind the guns.

The US government's sole ambition in the region seems to be to maintain calm, or at the moment restore calm. To that end, several weeks ago they proposed a plan which would see the establishment of a special Palestinian security force to confront the militias that have been in control of Jenin and Nablus for several months. This force would be paid for by the Americans and trained in Jordan before returning to the West Bank and resuming responsibility for security in Area A, which has been handed over or usurped by the IDF for the last 6 months or so.

It would see the establishment of PA Civil Police SWAT teams in Jenin and Nablus in order to re-establish the PA’s control in the area. It's hoped this would reduce friction between the PA police and civilians by deploying civil police to operate and carry out arrests instead of paramilitary forces normally used.

The plan received the backing of Israel, Jordan and Egypt. Mahmoud Abbas, however, rejected the plan for the same reason I pointed out previously - having been forced out of Jenin they were reluctant to go back in with a stronger force because of the likelihood of Palestinian on Palestinian deaths, which would be catastrophic for the PA and almost as bad for Fatah in their struggle with Hamas.

His rejection frustrated the Americans with Anthony Blinken warning Abbas that if he doesn't cooperate they will "look for alternative plans and other personalities who will cooperate with us to implement our security plan."

That's quite sensational but the quote was repeated in American, Palestinian and Israeli accounts which gives it enough credence for me to repeat it. I doubt it means they are prepared to topple Abbas - though it's to be hoped they have various contingency plans in place for the day he finally departs - but they could be looking to work around him through the PA officials in charge of security, such as Hussein al-Sheikh, Majid Faraj, and Youssef al-Helou.

Then again they might simply look for an 'alternative plan'.

All of the above has been reported throughout the MENA region, in the US and in several European countries. Typically, there has been no mention of it in the UK media. They have reported on Blinken's visit but their journalistic antennas weren't alerted by the unusual presence of the Jordanian and Egyptian heads of security and the director of the CIA at the meetings, let alone have any inkling of the US plan - the Guardian even informed its readers that Blinken "offered no new US initiative" in their typically facile coverage.

The plan is not yet dead with two senior US officials still to talking with the PA, but time is short with the prospect of Ramadan next month - which even in calm periods usually sees an uptick in violence - overlapping with the Jewish Passover festival early in April.
 
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