Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

[BigMick]

Just to add that any real ire should be directed at Israeli policy since around 2010. Despite their many faults the PA should have been supported and strengthened economically, the security force should not have been undermined and the PA could have been given some easy political wins to counter Hamas/PFLP/IJ propaganda.

In addition they should have provided assistance for elements of the Fayyad Plan for Palestinian Statehood, which, had it been fully implemented would almost certainly have seen a Palestinian state in existence today, or negotiations underway. Some of the plan was implemented, and some is ongoing, but much of it withered away, partly due to Israeli negligence and shortsightedness but mainly due to Fayyad being undermined by his own side. 'Political Reunification' and 'Good Governance' are two phrases that stick in my head, both never achieved and it was the latter, which involved an attempt to root out corruption in government, that led to his departure from Palestinian politics.

His plan also promised that Palestine would be a peace-loving state that rejects violence and commits to co-existence with its neighbours, but didn't go into detail about how the various paramilitary groups would be disarmed, although he'd already had some success disarming Fatah's Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, which unfortunately has now been reinvigorated.

I partially exempt from criticism the Israeli government of the last 12 months which did some good things and attempted to do more, as well as doing some things I would have preferred them not to. Unfortunately they couldn't overcome the difficulties of being such a disparate coalition pulling in different directions, and a PA so weak that the mere whisper of the word 'normalisation' by its political opponents saw it rapidly retreat from any agreements.

 

[BigMick]

Someone has brought this to my attention, published by the Labour Friends of Israel group - I'm not sure when.

https://www.lfi.org.uk/steps-to-a-two-state-solution/

They have clearly spent a lot of time researching and coming up with their proposals so deserve credit for that. I can agree with most of their proposals, and have mentioned many of them on here already. That includes some of the steps I believe Israel should already have taken in the previous 10-15 years - the LFI even give a name-check to Salam Fayyad!

If I have to criticise I would question the order of the steps, which seems to be haphazard rather than realistic. There are also some key steps missing, while some they mention need to be expanded upon.

One area they fail to mention is preparing the people of Israel and Palestine for peace, which is just as important as convincing the leadership of the necessity for peace. They should learn from history.

The visit to Israel of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1977 convinced a previously cynical Israeli public that peace between their country and an Arab nation was possible, and paved the way to a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt that has held for more than 40 years. Similarly the public in both Israel and Palestine need to be convinced and reassured that a genuine peace deal is possible. The Arab nations, particularly those that Israel already have treaties with - Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Morocco and Bahrain - plus Saudi Arabia, are all more trusted in Israel than ever before and need to follow Sadat's example in taking bold steps to reassure the Israeli population that compromise will not lead to destruction, war, or more terrorism.
Equally, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar should take similar bold steps in Palestine to convince the population that compromise is necessary and will lead to the founding of their own state. Their support will make it easier for the Palestinian leadership to agree to concessions that would otherwise be impossible.

I recommend reading the LFI proposals as a starting point for anyone genuinely interested in peace and justice for the Palestinian and Israeli people.

 

[Toffeeslam]

Someone has brought this to my attention, published by the Labour Friends of Israel group - I'm not sure when.

https://www.lfi.org.uk/steps-to-a-two-state-solution/

They have clearly spent a lot of time researching and coming up with their proposals so deserve credit for that. I can agree with most of their proposals, and have mentioned many of them on here already. That includes some of the steps I believe Israel should already have taken in the previous 10-15 years - the LFI even give a name-check to Salam Fayyad!

If I have to criticise I would question the order of the steps, which seems to be haphazard rather than realistic. There are also some key steps missing, while some they mention need to be expanded upon.

One area they fail to mention is preparing the people of Israel and Palestine for peace, which is just as important as convincing the leadership of the necessity for peace. They should learn from history.

The visit to Israel of Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in 1977 convinced a previously cynical Israeli public that peace between their country and an Arab nation was possible, and paved the way to a peace treaty between Israel and Egypt that has held for more than 40 years. Similarly the public in both Israel and Palestine need to be convinced and reassured that a genuine peace deal is possible. The Arab nations, particularly those that Israel already have treaties with - Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Morocco and Bahrain - plus Saudi Arabia, are all more trusted in Israel than ever before and need to follow Sadat's example in taking bold steps to reassure the Israeli population that compromise will not lead to destruction, war, or more terrorism.
Equally, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Qatar should take similar bold steps in Palestine to convince the population that compromise is necessary and will lead to the founding of their own state. Their support will make it easier for the Palestinian leadership to agree to concessions that would otherwise be impossible.

I recommend reading the LFI proposals as a starting point for anyone genuinely interested in peace and justice for the Palestinian and Israeli people.

Steps also missing is a free and transparent investigation into IDF killings and abuses of Palestinians.

Also criminal charges bought against IDF personnel and the state for the killing of journalists reporting on events in the west bank

Perpetrators of Settler violence to be investigated and bought to justice in a international tribunal as there is little trust in the Israeli judicial process.

Just a few off the top of my head

 

[BigMick]

Further to my previous post, one key thing the LFI '30 Steps' doesn't do is face up to the reality that any negotiations that seem likely to succeed will face attempts to derail the talks, and any achieved settlement will face attempts to destroy it.

This could be by Hamas or other Palestinian extremists, by right-wing Jewish extremists, or by Iran and their proxies, notably Hezbollah in Lebanon.

In 2008 Hamas succeeded in derailing negotiations by bombing Israel, planting bombs in the West Bank, and making two verified assassination attempts on Mahmoud Abbas. They succeeded when Abbas, fearing a civil war and for his own life, walked away from the Israeli offer. Qatar and Egypt, who have most influence in Gaza, would need to ensure that Hamas are kept in check and other groups prevented from using Gaza as a base for attacks.

In 1995 Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin, who a year earlier signed the Oslo Accords that brought Yassir Arafat and the PLO back from Tunisia to govern in Palestine, was assassinated by a right-wing Jewish extremist who belonged to the same faction as the young Itamir Ben Gvir. Israeli security need to ensure nothing similar reoccurs and together with the IDF ensure that the minority of violent West Bank settlers are prevented from attacking Jews or Arabs.

While the LFI mention both Iran and Hezbollah it is not in this context. It will be up to the international community, led by the USA, to ensure that they are deterred from attempting to wreck negotiations or any agreement.

Once again, I recommend reading the '30 Steps' to anyone who seriously desires peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

https://www.lfi.org.uk/steps-to-a-two-state-solution/

 

[Toffeeslam]

Further to my previous post, one key thing the LFI '30 Steps' doesn't do is face up to the reality that any negotiations that seem likely to succeed will face attempts to derail the talks, and any achieved settlement will face attempts to destroy it.

This could be by Hamas or other Palestinian extremists, by right-wing Jewish extremists, or by Iran and their proxies, notably Hezbollah in Lebanon.

In 2008 Hamas succeeded in derailing negotiations by bombing Israel, planting bombs in the West Bank, and making two verified assassination attempts on Mahmoud Abbas. They succeeded when Abbas, fearing a civil war and for his own life, walked away from the Israeli offer. Qatar and Egypt, who have most influence in Gaza, would need to ensure that Hamas are kept in check and other groups prevented from using Gaza as a base for attacks.

In 1995 Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin, who a year earlier signed the Oslo Accords that brought Yassir Arafat and the PLO back from Tunisia to govern in Palestine, was assassinated by a right-wing Jewish extremist who belonged to the same faction as the young Itamir Ben Gvir. Israeli security need to ensure nothing similar reoccurs and together with the IDF ensure that the minority of violent West Bank settlers are prevented from attacking Jews or Arabs.

While the LFI mention both Iran and Hezbollah it is not in this context. It will be up to the international community, led by the USA, to ensure that they are deterred from attempting to wreck negotiations or any agreement.

Once again, I recommend reading the '30 Steps' to anyone who seriously desires peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

https://www.lfi.org.uk/steps-to-a-two-state-solution/

Like I said I read it and there are lots of steps missing as illustrated in a previous post.

No justice will mean no peace I’m afraid

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Israel and Lebanon reach agreement over gas fields in the Med off "their" coastlines. No mention of the Palestinian rights to those waters. So disgusting

 

[Toffeeslam]

Israel and Lebanon reach agreement over gas fields in the Med off "their" coastlines. No mention of the Palestinian rights to those waters. So disgusting

Literally getting erased from existence but the whole world looks the other way, but then the same people who then criticise Qatar for their human rights record.

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Literally getting erased from existence but the whole world looks the other way, but then the same people who then criticise Qatar for their human rights record.

Israeli influence is everywhere
Criticise and you’re anti-Semitic

 

[BigMick]

Israel and Lebanon reach agreement over gas fields in the Med off "their" coastlines. No mention of the Palestinian rights to those waters. So disgusting

Literally getting erased from existence but the whole world looks the other way, but then the same people who then criticise Qatar for their human rights record.

Why should a maritime agreement between Israel and Lebanon have to mention Palestinians?

I think you must be getting your geography mixed up. Here's the map showing the agreement.




No sign of Palestine or, for that matter, Syria which is very nearly the same distance from the disputed area as the West Bank is, or even Jordan which is only about 4 miles further away.

Palestine's coastal area is over 100 miles away - Gaza - so perhaps you're mixing the deal up with this one:

https://egyptindependent.com/egypt-...lop-natural-gas-field-off-the-shores-of-gaza/

 

[BigMick]

Israeli influence is everywhere
Criticise and you’re anti-Semitic

and the title of this thread is?

I disagree with it and strongly suspect that you agree with it. I would not accuse you, or anyone, of antisemitism because of that belief, even though I believe whoever states it is mistaken.

But, again, the apartheid label has already been discussed on this thread.

I will say I might change my opinion should Ben Gvir find a place in government and put any of his policies into practice.

 

[BigMick]

At last some good news from Nablus.

Eleven members of the Lion's Den terrorist group have laid down their arms and surrendered to the Palestinian Authority. After contemptuously dismissing a similar overture to surrender just 2 weeks ago, the most senior member issued a statement blaming the lack of support from the local community for the group's actions for his change of heart.

The community's views were expressed by their mayor at that time. Himself a fierce fighter for the Palestinian cause, everything he said was true and he deserves a lot of credit for speaking out.

Hopefully this will be the end of the pointless bloodshed, but it's too early to think that the Lion's Den is finished - the group put out a separate statement after the first four surrendered asking 'citizens' to stop spreading rumours of their demise, stressing that ‘the den is a thousand percent well.' No doubt they will be trying to recruit more gullible youths to their cause - putting a gun in their hands and filling their heads with nonsense: Yes, we can beat that professional army we're fighting against, but if we can't you can always kill a Jew and go out in a blaze of glory, dying as a martyr and entering paradise, with your name remembered forever and murals painted in your honour.

In response to the surrender the IDF have reopened checkpoints around the city, and I hope their nighttime raids into the city will stop too. Hopefully Nablus will quickly return to being the vibrant and beautiful Palestinian city it has always been. It would also be great if Jews are able to visit the holy site of Joseph's Tomb without being shot at, although they will need to be under armed guard - another failure of the PA.

It's reported that the men who surrendered have been taken to Jericho prison under 'protective custody'. Good luck to them - Jericho prison is known locally as 'the Slaughterhouse' because it's where the PA put their political opponents, often subjecting them to torture - over 250 cases in 2021 alone. It's even claimed that the brother of the leader who surrendered was tortured to death by PA interrogators while incarcerated there.

It doesn't take much to end up in there either - when I was in Jericho a few months ago there was an outcry after a photographer from Jenin published photos of gunmen patrolling the streets of Jenin during the day, checking permits and turning cars away. The PA didn't want photographic proof being published that showed them to have lost control of the city to the gunmen, so the poor man was arrested and thrown in the Jericho Slaughterhouse.

Despite this the gunmen who've surrendered apparently hope to become members of the PA security force, as promised previously. Given the PA have issued a statement saying they hope 'the extradition will bring quiet to the city of Nablus, and lead more young men to join the PA ranks', they may well be right.

 

[Toffeeslam]

Why should a maritime agreement between Israel and Lebanon have to mention Palestinians?

I think you must be getting your geography mixed up. Here's the map showing the agreement.

View attachment 188779


No sign of Palestine or, for that matter, Syria which is very nearly the same distance from the disputed area as the West Bank is, or even Jordan which is only about 4 miles further away.

Palestine's coastal area is over 100 miles away - Gaza - so perhaps you're mixing the deal up with this one:

https://egyptindependent.com/egypt-...lop-natural-gas-field-off-the-shores-of-gaza/

The gas field will all be for Israel’s benefit and anyway the points I discussed earlier are to do with the double standards when reporting events.

We’re seeing an increase in settler violence and in almost all cases tge settlers get away with it Scott free and the Palestinian victims are arrested by the IDF

Just look at the UN Security Council report outlining this but we hear nothing in the press, a Palestinian farts and they are terrorising and end up dead.

No justice will lead to no peace and the Israelis are getting a free pass, thankfully some journalists are reporting it before being murdered by IDF snipers though

 

[Noisy noise annoys]

Why should a maritime agreement between Israel and Lebanon have to mention Palestinians?

I think you must be getting your geography mixed up. Here's the map showing the agreement.

View attachment 188779


No sign of Palestine or, for that matter, Syria which is very nearly the same distance from the disputed area as the West Bank is, or even Jordan which is only about 4 miles further away.

Palestine's coastal area is over 100 miles away - Gaza - so perhaps you're mixing the deal up with this one:

https://egyptindependent.com/egypt-...lop-natural-gas-field-off-the-shores-of-gaza/

It’s all Palestine, Israel nicked it. All those waters belong to Palestine. The little they have left is still controlled by Israel

 

[BigMick]

It’s all Palestine, Israel nicked it. All those waters belong to Palestine. The little they have left is still controlled by Israel

I take it that you are aware that both Hamas and Hezbollah, two internationally designated terrorist organisations, have welcomed the deal.

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said, “We do not have any problem with the agreement with Israel.” Yes he even uttered the word "Israel" instead of "Zionist entity" or "Occupied Palestine" - none of Hezbollah’s officials have ever uttered the word “Israel” before. None of them tolerated ‎others who dared to say it. ‎ Now they might be playing a game, putting a brave face on their disappointment at the two countries coming to a deal, but many in Lebanon are hoping this signals a major shift in narrative and strategy.

So your position on this matter is actually more extreme than two internationally designated terrorist organisations.

 

[BigMick]

Like I said I read it and there are lots of steps missing as illustrated in a previous post.

No justice will mean no peace I’m afraid

Apologies - I missed this post.

I'm glad you read the report - I wish there were more people that interested!

Were there any steps you particularly agreed with, and any you disagreed with?

I agree with you about lots of steps missing and I saw the post you refer to about the points you raised. Can you think of any others that might be useful in preparing the ground for talks. I've mentioned a few in the last year or so on this thread and the late lamented Palestine thread but would be genuinely interest in any ideas you have, even if I ultimately don't agree with them. Doesn't have to be a comprehensive list and don't feel obliged to come up with anything!