'Incident' in London

[Seanjd]

That I disagree with how The Guardian understands things isn't new. The Independence's interpretation went for 'lack of empathy is the root cause of evil', and I went for lack of empathy + intentional acts of horror is evil

You didn't read the Independent article. I did. It says;

Baron-Cohen, argues that the term evil is unscientific and unhelpful. "Sometimes the term evil is used as a way to stop an inquiry," Baron-Cohen tells me. "'This person did it because they're evil' – as if that were an explanation."

You haven't read his book, have you?

 

[dholliday]

Are you telling me you don't think empathy and psychotics are linked? That a person with deep rooted psychiatric problems, let's say for example, the Munich shooter, doesn't feel lack of empathy as a result of those problems, or that lack of empathy isn't part of his psychiatric problems?

Come on now.

It's linked, sure.

But then you've got questions like do all people with psychosis hurt people? Do all people who lack empathy hurt people?

Clearly, the answer is no. You can't blame psychosis alone to explain crimes like this, for there are enough people suffering from this condition (or who induce it via entheogens) who don't hurt other people. Once the intent and action is there to hurt people, we go from 'mentally unsound' to 'bad intent' (a.k.a. evil).

 

[Seanjd]

It's linked, sure.

But then you've got questions like do all people with psychosis hurt people? Do all people who lack empathy hurt people?

Clearly, the answer is no. You can't blame psychosis alone to explain crimes like this, for there are enough people suffering from this condition (or who induce it via entheogens) who don't hurt other people. Once the intent and action is there to hurt people, we go from 'mentally unsound' to 'bad intent' (a.k.a. evil).

So mental illness is just totally bypassed in the event of somebody murdering somebody? You don't even look into it?

What if an innocent person was to confide and tell a psychologist that they feel like they may kill somebody? Do we just label them evil and lock them away or admit that this person may have a deep rooted psychological problem which needs investigating?

 

[larrygobfiend]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be honest. There are many forms of violent crimes committed for many different reasons. All I am saying is that it takes somebody with mental wellbeing problems to commit some mass murder attempt, and that should be explored rather than your idea of labelling them pure evil and locking them away.

What about Hitler and all of his chums?

 

[dholliday]

You didn't read the Independent article. I did. It says;

Baron-Cohen, argues that the term evil is unscientific and unhelpful. "Sometimes the term evil is used as a way to stop an inquiry," Baron-Cohen tells me. "'This person did it because they're evil' – as if that were an explanation."

You haven't read his book, have you?

I know he doesn't like the blanket term 'evil', but he is effectively explaining what 'evil' is. He's not saying it doesn't exist, he's saying we should understand what it is, or rather what we call things 'evil' are.

For reasons of semantics, I'm sticking with the term, as I don't buy the erosion of empathy as reason alone for it, rather that in combination with the intent-and-act of intense cruelty.

So mental illness is just totally bypassed in the event of somebody murdering someone body? You don't even look into it?

What if an innocent person was to confide and tell a psychologist that they feel like they may kill somebody? Do we just label them evil and lock them away or admit that this person may have a deep rooted psychological problem which needs investigating?

It's not totally bypassed, but it's not the explanation.

Were the Nazis mentally unsound? Are the Isreali and US governments when they arrange their bomb attacks on civilians? Does Obama have "deep rooted psychological problems" which make him want to kill Pakistani villagers? He's a guy seemingly brimming with empathy and is of sound mind, so what are we missing here?


We all need to understand empathy more, and respect those that plan and commit actual 'evil' acts are ultimately culpable for their actions.

 

[Seanjd]

What about Hitler and all of his chums?

I know he doesn't like the blanket term 'evil', but he is effectively explaining what 'evil' is. He's not saying it doesn't exist, he's saying we should understand what it is, or rather what we call things 'evil' are.

For reasons of semantics, I'm sticking with the term, as I don't buy the erosion of empathy as reason alone for it, rather that in combination with the intent-and-act of intense cruelty.




It's not totally bypassed, but it's not the explanation.

Were the Nazis mentally unsound? Are the Isreali and US governments when they arrange their bomb attacks on civilians? Does Obama have "deep rooted psychological problems" which make him want to kill Pakistani villagers? He's a guy seemingly brimming with empathy and is of sound mind, so what are we missing here?


We all need to understand empathy more, and respect those that plan and commit actual 'evil' acts are ultimately culpable for their actions.

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about the collective mentalities of the Nazis and various governments around the world.

Holliday, you know as well as I do that what you're talking about there is very different to an 18 year old with a history of mental illness picking up a gun and going on a shooting spree.

 

[dholliday]

I'm not going to be drawn into a debate about the collective mentalities of the Nazis and various governments around the world.

Holliday, you know as well as I do that what you're talking about there is very different to an 18 year old with a history of mental illness picking up a gun and going on a shooting spree.

which takes us back to my first post in this thread, I'll just quote the bit most relevant:

mental health was a significant factor

This line is doing the rounds in the media. There'll end up being a fear of mentally-unstable people despite the vast majority being harmless.

My main argument is this:

I don't agree with mental illness being a sound excuse for such acts, consistently doing so is dangerous to the majority of mentally-unwell who never hurt anyone.

 

[Seanjd]

which takes us back to my first post in this thread, I'll just quote the bit most relevant:




My main argument is this:

I don't agree with mental illness being a sound excuse for such acts, consistently doing so is dangerous to the majority of mentally-unwell who never hurt anyone.

Nothing is an excuse for murder. As far as explaining it though, mental illness should be factored and explored, because there are varying degrees of mental illness. This has no bearing on other mentally ill people.

 

[Seanjd]

which takes us back to my first post in this thread, I'll just quote the bit most relevant:




My main argument is this:

I don't agree with mental illness being a sound excuse for such acts, consistently doing so is dangerous to the majority of mentally-unwell who never hurt anyone.

The suspect emigrated from Norway to the UK in 2002, at the age of five, according to the Norwegian Embassy.

“While the investigation is not yet complete, all of the work we have done so far increasingly points to this tragic incident as having been triggered by mental health issues,” Rowley said. “Indeed at this time we believe it was a spontaneous attack and the victims were selected at random

Was he pure evil?

 

[Polish_Blue_Army]

so many mental problems recently...

 

[Seanjd]

so many mental problems recently...

Always has been.

 

[Dymak]

The idea that committing a barbaric act makes you mentally ill is ridiculous. The law recognises this as well. Criminals that are deemed to be mentally unwell are sent to secure hospitals, whereas criminals that are deemed to have mental capacity are sent to prison. Personality traits such as bitterness, vindictiveness and lack of empathy are not psychotic disorders and cannot be used to excuse acts of barbarity. Some people are just bad people and having socially unacceptable personality traits does not absolve them of responsibility, and nor does some Freudian hard luck story about how their mother didn't buy them a chocolate milk shake when they were eight years old.

 

[dandydan]

Erm. Not sure about Brevik, but the Munich shooter and the Nice attacker both had long history of psychiatric treatment.

As did Tommy Mair the poster boy of the "far right"

 

[The Cowboy]

The idea that committing a barbaric act makes you mentally ill is ridiculous. The law recognises this as well. Criminals that are deemed to be mentally unwell are sent to secure hospitals, whereas criminals that are deemed to have mental capacity are sent to prison. Personality traits such as bitterness, vindictiveness and lack of empathy are not psychotic disorders and cannot be used to excuse acts of barbarity. Some people are just bad people and having socially unacceptable personality traits does not absolve them of responsibility, and nor does some Freudian hard luck story about how their mother didn't buy them a chocolate milk shake when they were eight years old.

That wasn't the issue we were talking about, though. It was the complete opposite, in fact. There was a suggestion made that anyone who murders or commits a heinous act is 'pure evil', with absolutely no consideration for the impact of mental disorders.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That wasn't the issue we were talking about, though. It was the complete opposite, in fact. There was a suggestion made that anyone who murders or commits a heinous act is 'pure evil', with absolutely no consideration for the impact of mental disorders.

I often wonder how you define pure evil. Is it a gene that some folks have or something?