'Incident' in London

[dholliday]

Well, I think an extraordinary lack of empathy certainly could be a quality of a mental unwell person. Everybody is born human, and then exposed to very different experiences throughout life. I just cannot believe that anybody is pure evil and that's it. It's a cop out. What are the real reasons behind such a thing happening? It's far too easy to label somebody pure evil, lock them away and that's it. Many terrorists, I would argue, are mentally unwell due to the brain-washing indoctrinating process which has occurred. Of course, though, there are cases of people committing crimes purely for political gain - think IRA - but not in the way that they would just kill anybody who they have been told is the enemy.

It takes a serious mental illness to walk into a busy place and blow yourself, or stab somebody, or go in some kind of shooting spree.

I think your take on this is one of the reasons why we don't seem to be solving the problem of violent crime.

 

[dholliday]

For @Seanjd and anyone else interested in further reading as to the reality of evil, check out Simon Baron-Cohen's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Degrees-Empathy-Theory-Cruelty-Kindness/dp/0141017961

The Wiki on the system he talks about is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing–systemizing_theory


Basically the combination of lack of empathy for others + planned acts of horror against other people without a defensible motive = EVIL.


I used to think like you, Sean, like you and most 'progressive liberal' types, this song was like an anthem for our views:





But at some point you learn more about life and realise some things you were wrong about.

Maybe my views will change again in a decade or two, who knows? But right now I'm with Professor Baron-Cohen.

 

[Seanjd]

I think your take on this is one of the reasons why we don't seem to be solving the problem of violent crime.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be honest. There are many forms of violent crimes committed for many different reasons. All I am saying is that it takes somebody with mental wellbeing problems to commit some mass murder attempt, and that should be explored rather than your idea of labelling them pure evil and locking them away.

 

[The Cowboy]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be honest. There are many forms of violent crimes committed for many different reasons. All I am saying is that it takes somebody with mental wellbeing problems to commit some mass murder attempt, and that should be explored rather than your idea of labelling them pure evil and locking them away.

Evidently the word psychosis isn't in Mr Holliday's vocab.

 

[dholliday]

Not sure how you come to that conclusion to be honest. There are many forms of violent crimes committed for many different reasons. All I am saying is that it takes somebody with mental wellbeing problems to commit some mass murder attempt, and that should be explored rather than your idea of labelling them pure evil and locking them away.

See my post above, mate. For now we just have different views but mayhap after further reading you might understand where I'm coming from.


I'm concerned for the genuinely mentally-ill who could well be labelled 'potentially-dangerous' due to this trend of blaming mental illness on horrible crimes. My Uncle's a schizophrenic and never hurt a fly, all the lads (and lasses) in our Depression thread I'm quite sure are equally kind in nature. We don't want them put under a dangerous label because we shy away from more direct explanations for the 'evil' in this world.

 

[dholliday]

Evidently the word psychosis isn't in Mr Holliday's vocab.

Brevik, the München shooter and the Nice attacker all suffered from psychosis, did they?

 

[The Cowboy]

Brevik, the München shooter and the Nice attacker all suffered from psychosis, did they?

Probably not, no. It's everything so binary in your world?

There's a range of reasons why things happen.

 

[Seanjd]

For @Seanjd and anyone else interested in further reading as to the reality of evil, check out Simon Baron-Cohen's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Degrees-Empathy-Theory-Cruelty-Kindness/dp/0141017961

The Wiki on the system he talks about is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathizing–systemizing_theory


Basically the combination of lack of empathy for others + planned acts of horror against other people without a defensible motive = EVIL.


I used to think like you, Sean, like you and most 'progressive liberal' types, this song was like an anthem for our views:





But at some point you learn more about life and realise some things you were wrong about.

Maybe my views will change again in a decade or two, who knows? But right now I'm with Professor Baron-Cohen.

Just to point out, the Guardian have reviewed a lecture based on the book by Baron Cohrn you linked and they totally disagree with you. They think;

"He wants society to progress from condemning people as evil and instead understand why they acted without due concern for the pain they would cause."
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2011/apr/27/simon-baron-cohen-empathy-evil

Granted, I haven't read the book, and probably won't, but I don't think it's supporting your view generally.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

I know its slightly off topic, but i read that as Sasha Baron Cohen, i was thinking what the hell is Borat doing writing a book on that!

 

[Seanjd]

Brevik, the München shooter and the Nice attacker all suffered from psychosis, did they?

Erm. Not sure about Brevik, but the Munich shooter and the Nice attacker both had long history of psychiatric treatment.

 

[Seanjd]

Disagree. Brevik was proven to be mentally quite sound.

It takes planning and an extraordinary lack of empathy for others: these aren't qualities of mentally-unwell people. I'd say it's your opinion that's the dangerous one.

Brevik, the München shooter and the Nice attacker all suffered from psychosis, did they?

Using Breivik as a case of mass murderers can be totally sane is also nonesense, actually. It's a very complex case and has a lot to do with Norways judicial system, which absolves anybobody suffering from psychotic mental disorders of their crimes. If he was deemed psychotic, which by the way he was after his first tests, then he would not have been responsible for 80 odd deaths. His second set of testings changed his psychotic diagnosis from paranoid schizophrenia to narcissistic personality disorder, which is still recognised as a mental health issue, but obviously not as severe as the prior.

 

[dholliday]

Probably not, no. It's everything so binary in your world?

Not really, I'm a big fan of nuance and grey areas. But for some things a simple explanation is sufficient. Not everything is shades of grey: if you plan and then kill innocent people, you are a bad person and must be removed from society. Not via death penalty, which I don't believe in. But a life sentence with limited community work is what they should end up with, for they forfeited their rights to anything else.

Most humans are actually rather simple and respond positively to harsh but fair lessons in life. Too much misplaced 'understanding' can be counter-productive.

There's a range of reasons why things happen.

That's exactly what the song said

Just to point out, the Guardian have reviewed a lecture based on the book by Baron Cohrn you linked and they totally disagree with you. They think;

"He wants society to progress from condemning people as evil and instead understand why they acted without due concern for the pain they would cause."
https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2011/apr/27/simon-baron-cohen-empathy-evil

Granted, I haven't read the book, and probably won't, but I don't think it's supporting your view generally.

That I disagree with how The Guardian understands things isn't new. The Independence's interpretation went for 'lack of empathy is the root cause of evil', and I went for lack of empathy + intentional acts of horror is evil.


Bit like how reading Dianetics made me understand the cult of religion more than any agnostic study of the Bible. Baron-Cohen is onto something: empathy is key, not mental gymnastics.

 

[dholliday]

I know its slightly off topic, but i read that as Sasha Baron Cohen, i was thinking what the hell is Borat doing writing a book on that!

I think they're related.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

I think they're related.

Learn something new every day!

 

[Seanjd]

Not really, I'm a big fan of nuance and grey areas. But for some things a simple explanation is sufficient. Not everything is shades of grey: if you plan and then kill innocent people, you are a bad person and must be removed from society. Not via death penalty, which I don't believe in. But a life sentence with limited community work is what they should end up with, for they forfeited their rights to anything else.

Most humans are actually rather simple and respond positively to harsh but fair lessons in life. Too much misplaced 'understanding' can be counter-productive.




That's exactly what the song said




That I disagree with how The Guardian understands things isn't new. The Independence's interpretation went for 'lack of empathy is the root cause of evil', and I went for lack of empathy + intentional acts of horror is evil.


Bit like how reading Dianetics made me understand the cult of religion more than any agnostic study of the Bible. Baron-Cohen is onto something: empathy is key, not mental gymnastics.

Are you telling me you don't think empathy and psychotics are linked? That a person with deep rooted psychiatric problems, let's say for example, the Munich shooter, doesn't feel lack of empathy as a result of those problems, or that lack of empathy isn't part of his psychiatric problems?

Come on now.