I Just Don't Get It!

[barneygumble]

Our problem at the moment is the players are utter shithouses, they’re cowards. The sad state of affairs is, they have been since Moyes left. I was never Moyes biggest fan, but at least he’d have the players in the right spirits, battling (to an extent against “big” sides at home).

The reality is, these players are lazy, uninterested and don’t care for the shirt. I watched the aforementioned Brighton game on Sunday, the full time whistle goes and they all huddle and looked absolutely ecstatic to win, meanwhile, flash forward 24 hours and see our players trudging off at full time could barely even look at the fans.

Those players don’t care, not one bit, we saw with Martinez, Koeman, Unsworth and now Allardyce, there’s no motivation. No fight. Nothing. The captains job is to rally the players and he’s held that job for 6 years now and he’s not up to it.

The young lads, there’s no need for urgency, if they didn’t play again until the end of their contracts, who cares? They’re millionaires.

The one thing Moyes had which these managers don’t is, he had battlers, whether that carsley, Cahill whatever, he had people who wanted to battle for ever ball and be the best.

Can you say the same for Williams? Schneiderlin? Cause I can’t.

The reality is, roberto was too naive, Koeman too stubborn and Allardyce doesn’t give a toss.

Until we get a manager who actually wants to be here, who actually wants to win, and one who demands respect, we’re doing nothing but straddling mid table.

All this nonsense about “oh no Europa please”, says it all about some of our fans.

Look at City or PSG, maybe Liverpool or Spurs, spent the early parts of their riches in the Europa perfecting it, building a base and attracting better players.

Spurs and Liverpool used it as their base to build on and now could be regulars I. The champions league.

Instead we’re happy to not get in Europe this year, cause we need to be fully prepared next season, in our aims to qualify for.... oh, the Europa.

The players don’t care and the fans will accept mediocrity.

Sack the manager, shape the players, raise the expectations of the fan base, then maybe we’ll have something to cheer.

 

[degsy]

What I don't get is how teams like Brighton, Swansea and Wigan can play teams like Arsenal, the rs and Citeh, put in great performances and end up beating them yet, against such opposition, we play like awestruck teenagers. This inevitably leads to a good beating of course.
Can anybody explain this???

Yeah, we've a shight team full of bottlers, coached by tossers, appointed by divvies

 

[Kenshin]

Think your being really disingenious there regarding Moyes. Yeah we used to struggle against the top 4 (we were usually 5-8 mind) but those top 4 teams were on a completely different level to us commercially. ..it literally was like taking a knife to a gun fight. He was that hamstrung and it should not be forgotten that, that was the case.
I tell you what though, there were many times with a fully fit squad with Baines, Pienaar, Felli all on song I very often felt confident of a victory against most....now ?? They seem to fear everyone. Moyes never had us like that.

I think you are being very short minded saying moyes never had us like that.

We lost a semi final against Chelsea after they had a player sent off. We lost a semi against Liverpool by literally defending for 60 minutes against them. We lost a cup final by being defensive against Chelsea. These are just high profile examples of it, how many super defensive displays against other teams did we have?

This is the same manager who defended a Sunderland 1-0 after 6 minutes of the game. The same manager who losing 1-0 subbed his injured defender in midfield for another one (we lost still). The same manager who won like 3 derbies in 11 years despite the many times we had to beat them.

Moyes is a bottler make no mistake. He was sacked from United for exactly the same thing. Telling the reigning league champions to be worried about west ham? Defending in their own half when a year before Ferguson had them 3 goals up after an hour?

I have always believed that despite the lack of money, Moyes negative mind set held himself back. Yes the money issue may have improved the team immensely (essien, hazard, manolas, checzh to name a few) but ultimately Moyes fear held the team back from ever achieving anything great.

Even finishing 4th he completely bottled it in the second half of the season and the team fell apart. We only got there because the kopites focused on a much bigger prize (to our downfall) but instead of strolling to 4th thst year we limped there.

 

[Philw]

Whilst that is very true, it does not address the question posed by the OP as to why the clubs he mentions often turn up and win those type of games.....because those teams are replete with just the type of player you mention.

Take even Crystal Palace......this season they put up a heck of a fight against teams which just steamrollered us.

They have beaten Chelsea and missed a last minute penalty which would have inflicted City’s first defeat.

They took the game to United last night in a way this current Everton set up would never have done.

Part of the issue for me, or at least reason why 'smaller' clubs seem to do better, is that they are expected to lose, so therefore they have nothing to lose, and can go out with a mentality of being more aggressive, take more risks and play without fear. If it doesn't work they are exactly where they expected to be anyway, if it does then they get a win, or a credible loss, having 'gone for it'. For us we are expected to be able to at least put up a fight, and there is a greater emphasis on not losing, which may cause a 'less' risky approach. Unfortunately this actually seems to lead to more losses and soft performances due to negativity, fear of failure and restricted freedom to play.

 

[Ebrell22]

Buy some German players. This will miraculously turn us into world beaters. I dont know why. Just need 3

 

[toffee-L]

We have a very long term attitude problem when it comes to beating some of these teams away, and when it comes to those horrors across the park we can't even beat them at home. I think we need a total refresh in the dressing room, there's too many players in there that have just got used to falling short year after year. We have allowed a weak mentality to fester amongst our playing staff for too long. Our players are used to losing big football matches with no consequences and they are, in a way, numb to it now.

 

[Lanolin]

I think you are being very short minded saying moyes never had us like that.

We lost a semi final against Chelsea after they had a player sent off. We lost a semi against Liverpool by literally defending for 60 minutes against them. We lost a cup final by being defensive against Chelsea. These are just high profile examples of it, how many super defensive displays against other teams did we have?

This is the same manager who defended a Sunderland 1-0 after 6 minutes of the game. The same manager who losing 1-0 subbed his injured defender in midfield for another one (we lost still). The same manager who won like 3 derbies in 11 years despite the many times we had to beat them.

Moyes is a bottler make no mistake. He was sacked from United for exactly the same thing. Telling the reigning league champions to be worried about west ham? Defending in their own half when a year before Ferguson had them 3 goals up after an hour?

I have always believed that despite the lack of money, Moyes negative mind set held himself back. Yes the money issue may have improved the team immensely (essien, hazard, manolas, checzh to name a few) but ultimately Moyes fear held the team back from ever achieving anything great.

Even finishing 4th he completely bottled it in the second half of the season and the team fell apart. We only got there because the kopites focused on a much bigger prize (to our downfall) but instead of strolling to 4th thst year we limped there.

But how do you explain the same things happening under Martinez, who had a totally different mindset and attitude?

In 3 years under the most upbeat manager imaginable, who talked - my god did he talk - a good game and was all about sin miedo and all that jazz, we blew 4th place when it was there for the taking, lost a semi final to an average United side despite seemingly looking the more likely side to get another goal for a good while, lost a semi final to City in which we had a 2 goal cushion two thirds of the way through the tie and didn't even manage to take it extra time, lost in similar circumstances in Kiev, and lost 4-0 at Anfield TWICE.

I find the idea of blaming everything on mentality and bottle to be lazy and usually wrong. Remember when everyone used to say Andy Murray was a bottler, and then he won 3 grand slams, 2 Olympics and a davis cup, and showed everyone up to be absolutely clueless? It's the same here. We don't often beat the best teams because they're better than us, same as people used to think Andy Murray was a bottler when in reality he just wasn't as good as Nadal/Federer/Djokovic and so found it difficult to beat them. I can't answer why we never seem to beat the top sides away, but I know why we rarely do, because they invariably have better players and managers than we do. Bring in a good coach and some better players and I have no doubt whatsoever that we'd see all these bottle merchants suddenly start winning big games.

 

[barneygumble]

But how do you explain the same things happening under Martinez, who had a totally different mindset and attitude?

In 3 years under the most upbeat manager imaginable, who talked - my god did he talk - a good game and was all about sin miedo and all that jazz, we blew 4th place when it was there for the taking, lost a semi final to an average United side despite seemingly looking the more likely side to get another goal for a good while, lost a semi final to City in which we had a 2 goal cushion two thirds of the way through the tie and didn't even manage to take it extra time, lost in similar circumstances in Kiev, and lost 4-0 at Anfield TWICE.

I find the idea of blaming everything on mentality and bottle to be lazy and usually wrong. Remember when everyone used to say Andy Murray was a bottler, and then he won 3 grand slams, 2 Olympics and a davis cup, and showed everyone up to be absolutely clueless? It's the same here. We don't often beat the best teams because they're better than us, same as people used to think Andy Murray was a bottler when in reality he just wasn't as good as Nadal/Federer/Djokovic and so found it difficult to beat them. I can't answer why we never seem to beat the top sides away, but I know why we rarely do, because they invariably have better players and managers than we do. Bring in a good coach and some better players and I have no doubt whatsoever that we'd see all these bottle merchants suddenly start winning big games.

I think a little bit is to do with the managers tactics, so i understand your point. As it goes, we're lacking that absolutely giant personality of a manager, who the players will respect and run through brick walls for. They come in all shapes and sizes, you've got the power houses like Ferguson, Guardiola then you have the flip side, and you have giants in personality like your Eddie Howe's and Sean Dyche's who the players want to play for.
The problem with Martinez is that he was physically incapable of seeing errors in his ways... we'd hear stories that behind the scenes he'd get "angry", but we never saw that. It held him back, and whilst attacking was great, winning the possession battle, but losing the game was not. Once the players felt like the couldn't trust what he was saying, his methods, they gave up. Never have I seen Goodison as toxic towards the end. Losing to the likes of West Brom and getting a "We played well, some positives" didn't sit right with the fans or the players, enough was enough.
Then we had Koeman, who unlike Martinez had the international prestige, a World Class, International and European champion, the fella oozed cockiness and smugness from the off. "Okay, so", his buzz word like "Phenomenal" was for Roberto. He was negative, and relied heavily on Lukaku's goals for anything as well as the weakness of the league. He upset the crowd, he upset the players and if rumours are to be believed, was resented for it. In any work place, when you're being singled out for being bad, it has a terrible effect on everyone... "Am I next?", in this scenario. Couple that with the huge contract, the joke of a DoF and his dreadful signings, and pretty quickly, when those results go and the players stop trying, you're gone.
Allardyce, well, lets not talk about him. Every single person on this board, they nailed it. "Give him 18 months, then he gets a pay out in the summer", oh boy, does that show. He doesn't care, and the mentality the players show for him, is actually worse than what it was for Roberto at the end. There's nothing. We need battlers, we need fighters, and we have absolutely nothing. We have a load of greedy ass players and a manager who is literally laughing to the bank. No spine, no fight, no anything from any of them. I started watching Everton in 1997, and we had some utter dross, John Oster, John O'Kane, Tony Thomas to name a few, but the difference is, when we got beat, you could come away saying they tried.
This squad has done 4 managers now, and there's no improvement. We need a battler, an absolute general in the team who's going to absolutely blast the players for not trying. If they don't they go. Simple as.

We're a mess, but the players are the root cause here.

 

[Kenshin]

But how do you explain the same things happening under Martinez, who had a totally different mindset and attitude?

In 3 years under the most upbeat manager imaginable, who talked - my god did he talk - a good game and was all about sin miedo and all that jazz, we blew 4th place when it was there for the taking, lost a semi final to an average United side despite seemingly looking the more likely side to get another goal for a good while, lost a semi final to City in which we had a 2 goal cushion two thirds of the way through the tie and didn't even manage to take it extra time, lost in similar circumstances in Kiev, and lost 4-0 at Anfield TWICE.

I find the idea of blaming everything on mentality and bottle to be lazy and usually wrong. Remember when everyone used to say Andy Murray was a bottler, and then he won 3 grand slams, 2 Olympics and a davis cup, and showed everyone up to be absolutely clueless? It's the same here. We don't often beat the best teams because they're better than us, same as people used to think Andy Murray was a bottler when in reality he just wasn't as good as Nadal/Federer/Djokovic and so found it difficult to beat them. I can't answer why we never seem to beat the top sides away, but I know why we rarely do, because they invariably have better players and managers than we do. Bring in a good coach and some better players and I have no doubt whatsoever that we'd see all these bottle merchants suddenly start winning big games.

I have already explained it mate. It's part of the club's dna now.

We brought in a retired manager who's experience was with small clubs and told him he only has to keep us up after 250 million spent on the first team! Where's the ambition in that? That is my point, the ambition went as far as Watford manager and Sam allardyce.

Even qpr and spurs mass spending at their times involved players from high profile clubs and ours was from teams who usually finished below us. It's the whole mentality of the club now, it's clear as day.

And as for Martinez, was he not also relegated when we recruited him? A relegation manager for all intents and purposes? Same as allardyce? We recruited koeman for big name and signed our players from Swansea, palace , villa , Fulham and a west ham reject. We sold our best player for then a world record fee and signed from swansea, Burnley Sunderland etc

Can't you see the blatant small club mentality?

 

[Lanolin]

I have already explained it mate. It's part of the club's dna now.

We brought in a retired manager who's experience was with small clubs and told him he only has to keep us up after 250 million spent on the first team! Where's the ambition in that? That is my point, the ambition went as far as Watford manager and Sam allardyce.

Even qpr and spurs mass spending at their times involved players from high profile clubs and ours was from teams who usually finished below us. It's the whole mentality of the club now, it's clear as day.

And as for Martinez, was he not also relegated when we recruited him? A relegation manager for all intents and purposes? Same as allardyce? We recruited koeman for big name and signed our players from Swansea, palace , villa , Fulham and a west ham reject. We sold our best player for then a world record fee and signed from swansea, Burnley Sunderland etc

Can't you see the blatant small club mentality?

You haven't 'explained' it at all though. You've said stuff, but offered no context because there is none to back up what you're saying.

You're effectively saying that appointing a washed up Kendall (twice), a relegated Royle, the absolute abomination that was Mike Walker, Walter Smith, and Moyes himself from the Championship wasn't small time but since he came in we've become small time. It's patently ridiculous.

I'm only 33, I don't remember the glory days. I do remember us signing Tony Thomas, John O'Kane, Mitch Ward, Brett Angell, John Spencer and Tommy Johnson though. You're now trying to tell me that we weren't small time when we doing that but we are now that we're signing 'from 'Swansea' (conveniently leaving out that the player you're talking about cost £45m), you want to tell me that signing someone from Sunderland - again leaving out that he cost £25m and is a current England international - is small time but signing Steve Simonsen from Tranmere, Paul Gerrard from Oldham and Thomas Myhre from Viking Stavanger (and then not playing him because we'd have to pay another £100k) wasn't. Does that sound logical to you?

The point is, the willingness of so many to just put everything down to mentality is mind boggling to me. We hadn't won away at Leeds for about 50 years before Moyes came and ended that hoodoo, same with a 25 year run at White Hart Lane. Was that down to mentality too then? If yes then how come Moyes overcame it, if no then are we not just cherry picking what does and doesn't count in order to fit the narrative?

I keep seeing people talk about us not having leaders and having this weird mentality issue but nobody ever seems to be able to explain where they get this idea from, other than just because we haven't won anything. I've said before, Phil Jagielka was captaining Sheffield United at 20, he's captained Everton under 4 managers, and he's captained England, and yet some bloke on the internet who's never even met the lad says he's a rubbish captain because we don't win trophies. It's bonkers. Ashley Williams captains his country and other clubs for years, comes here and suddenly forgets how to be a leader? Rooney the same? It's like the whole 'winners' and 'losers' thing that makes absolutely no sense but is peddled by those who are desperate to understand why they want to happen isn't happening no matter how much they stamp their feet and say it's not good enough.

 

[Rob17896]

What I don't get is how teams like Brighton, Swansea and Wigan can play teams like Arsenal, the rs and Citeh, put in great performances and end up beating them yet, against such opposition, we play like awestruck teenagers. This inevitably leads to a good beating of course.
Can anybody explain this???

Yes, we are rubbish.

 

[blue61]

I think you are being very short minded saying moyes never had us like that.

We lost a semi final against Chelsea after they had a player sent off. We lost a semi against Liverpool by literally defending for 60 minutes against them. We lost a cup final by being defensive against Chelsea. These are just high profile examples of it, how many super defensive displays against other teams did we have?

This is the same manager who defended a Sunderland 1-0 after 6 minutes of the game. The same manager who losing 1-0 subbed his injured defender in midfield for another one (we lost still). The same manager who won like 3 derbies in 11 years despite the many times we had to beat them.

Moyes is a bottler make no mistake. He was sacked from United for exactly the same thing. Telling the reigning league champions to be worried about west ham? Defending in their own half when a year before Ferguson had them 3 goals up after an hour?

I have always believed that despite the lack of money, Moyes negative mind set held himself back. Yes the money issue may have improved the team immensely (essien, hazard, manolas, checzh to name a few) but ultimately Moyes fear held the team back from ever achieving anything great.

Even finishing 4th he completely bottled it in the second half of the season and the team fell apart. We only got there because the kopites focused on a much bigger prize (to our downfall) but instead of strolling to 4th thst year we limped there.

Not to forget 'Saha off, Distin on'.

 

[Toffe3m4n]

Buy some German players. This will miraculously turn us into world beaters. I dont know why. Just need 3

A team full of Germans & Brazilians would be ace.

 

[Khalekan]

And as for Martinez, was he not also relegated when we recruited him? A relegation manager for all intents and purposes? Same as allardyce? We recruited koeman for big name and signed our players from Swansea, palace , villa , Fulham and a west ham reject. We sold our best player for then a world record fee and signed from swansea, Burnley Sunderland etc

Can't you see the blatant small club mentality?

There is nothing wrong with that practice per se.

United last nigh fielded players bought from Wigan, Fulham, Watford, Saints and.....Everton.

The RS will field a team replete with Saints old boys on Saturday.....captained by a Sunderland import (if he is fit).

It is what the coach does with those players when he gets them that counts.

 

[EFC78]

We have a decent record over City and have for a few years, normally we have a decent home record at home vs the top 6, this year however has been terrible, drew with Chelsea, lost to Utd, Arsenal and Spurs, with City and RS to come

At home, more often than not, our players don't have the same mental weakness as when they go away against the same sides. However, the decent record against City at the Etihad disappeared as soon as they got themselves the status of being one of the Countries Top Dogs and little old Everton and their players now go in to this fixture with the aim of 'getting out alive'.

It's why Arsenal beat us last season despite having 10 men from the 14th minute onwards. It's why we failed to capitalise on Man City having Walker sent off in the first half this season and conceded late on.

When teams are there for the taking, our players and managers don't seize the opportunity and unfortunately it's pure cowardice from all involved. It happened under Moyes. It happened under Martinez - Arsenal away in 13-14 where we bossed the first half but didn't score, conceding a 98th minute goal to Chelsea (maybe more recklessness than cowardice in this one, but he still couldn't get the job done). Under Koeman with the Arsenal and City games I mention.

And now under Allardyce. We're playing Watford who have been in pathetic form, they have made all 3 substitutions and we have a chance to turn around our away form. We have very little to lose and what does Allardyce want to do? Bring on Morgan Schneiderlin to hold on to a 0-0 draw. Same on Saturday at Burnley. Decent enough first half but warning signs there. Does Allardyce do anything about their threat? No he persists and then makes changes that won't affect how the game is going. He makes like for like substitutions by bringing off one striker and replacing him with another.

Until the mentality from both the manager and the players change, we won't overcome this.