How long did Moyes hold us back for ?

[Ihaters]

doesn't matter if you lose the qualifying round

Does if your being told the ceiling is 5th regardless of how much money is being thrown at it.

 

[Dymak]

The answer is still three to four years.

Three to four years ago, the bank was demanding that we sell more than 20 million pounds worth of players, and Kenwright didn't allow the manager to buy a single first team player for actual money, for a period of two and a half years.

I find it surprising that you think a change of manager would have been appropriate during that period, and I have no idea who you think would have accepted such circumstances, and what manager you think would have done a better job than Moyes during that period.

 

[evilwebby]

Being kind, he peaked in the FAC Final campaign.

Being less kind, he went nowhere after about 2004-5, despite marginal improvements to the quality of the squads he could never get the most out of them anyway, and you have to realistically compare to the benchmark EPL champions rather than the squad from last season.

 

[Tubey]

Three to four years ago, the bank was demanding that we sell more than 20 million pounds worth of players, and Kenwright didn't allow the manager to buy a single first team player for actual money, for a period of two and a half years.

I find it surprising that you think a change of manager would have been appropriate during that period, and I have no idea who you think would have accepted such circumstances, and what manager you think would have done a better job than Moyes during that period.

Same old tired excuses that expired when he failed miserably at United. He didn't utilise the talent at his disposal - Martinez has a negative net spend of around £15-20m this season over two transfer windows and look what has happened.

 

[Chimpy Glassman]

Surely he would cite financial constraints as to why he didn't kick on.

Instead of bemoaning the lack of cash, he should of been spurring the team on.
If the dour grinch couldn't even motivate the champions he isn't worth the obscene money.

Back to the SPL with you goblin man.

 

[ToffeeDan]

The thread is "how long did Moyes hold us back" - we're currently 1 point off the Champions League with a record points total in a new managers transition season.

That tells the story. If we had a new manager three years ago, the same thing would have happened - you talk about those league finishes, all of which happened with either a bad start to the season or terrible finish as he was a bottler. We had periods in all those seasons were we were ruthless with the pressure off. Martinez has let go of the leash and you're seeing the results.

The answer, all day long, is three to four years. The bold bit of your post is a negative mindset that needs to be got rid of - the question isn't who we should have finished above, but why we didn't get anywhere near.

Yep, we were great from adversity - from 10th place mid-season to the end. The Us against Them Mentality works when you've been sh1t and got nothing to lose. He just didn't have it in him to do it when the stakes were higher. (Chelsea LCSF, Liverpool SF, Chelsea FACF, chasing top 4 - most seasons).."gallant losers ain't enough - our motto is not Nearly The Best is Good Enough..it's Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

 

[Khalekan]

The spending thing is moot.

The "bank" didn't "force" United to sell £20 million worth of players and in fact he was given £70 million to buy players.

The end result was the same.

The magical 7th place and the same clueless dross being played on the pitch.

 

[Dymak]

Same old tired excuses that expired when he failed miserably at United. He didn't utilise the talent at his disposal - Martinez has a negative net spend of around £15-20m this season over two transfer windows and look what has happened.

Martinez is close to achieving what Moyes achieved in 2005, but the way things are going it looks like he won't even match Moyes' achievement of a 4th place finish, and there is simply no doubting that Martinez inherited a far better team than the one Moyes was working with in 2005.

But that isn't the point, you are saying Moyes held us back for three or four years, whereas I am saying he was the perfect man for that period, as I struggle to think of any manager who could deal with the sale of 20million pounds worth of players, and a concurrent two and a half year cash-transfer embargo as well as Moyes did.

 

[Tubey]

Martinez is close to achieving what Moyes achieved in 2005, but the way things are going it looks like he won't even match Moyes' achievement of a 4th place finish, and there is simply no doubting that Martinez inherited a far better team than the one Moyes was working with in 2005.

But that isn't the point, you are saying Moyes held us back for three or four years, whereas I am saying he was the perfect man for that period, as I struggle to think of any manager who could deal with the sale of 20million pounds worth of players and a concurrent two and a half year cash-transfer embargo.

We're never going to agree - you have an inherently negative mindset where you believe what we did was the best possible, whereas I believe we achieved the bare minimum or just above in those three years give the talent in the squad.

Moyes put together an incredible squad twice and was in the process of creating a third one; however, he never knew how to utilise that talent. The year we finished 4th was a bizarre year; we did it on a negative goal difference, and Bolton and Middlesbrough finished in the top seven. Martinez's achievements far outstrip that with the goal difference, style of play, win/loss record and points total in a league where the top five has been harder to crack than the top five were in 2004/05. To put it into context, if we had performed that season as we are now, we'd have wrapped up Champions League qualification before the Arsenal game.

That isn't to take away from Moyes the achievement - as I've said repeatedly, he was a godlike manager for us in his first five years in charge. But you can't live off past glories, and for his last three to four seasons here he was stagnant.

 

[Timak]

The beaten generation shouting from the rooftops "7th....7th....hang out the flags and pass the tambourine....we finished 7th...."

Of course we finished in the top 7 almost every year before he took over......

Oh that's right. It was actually once in the previous decade.

You go on about the beaten generation accepting mediocrity. I'm just saying that it was a hell of a lot better finishing in the top 7 than in the bottom half which has been a far more frequent occurrence in the past 45 years.

 

[Tubey]

Of course we finished in the top 7 almost every year before he took over......

Oh that's right. It was actually once in the previous decade.

You go on about the beaten generation accepting mediocrity. I'm just saying that it was a hell of a lot better finishing in the top 7 than in the bottom half which has been a far more frequent occurrence in the past 45 years.

Ridiculously negative - that comment is a relic of an era I hope I never see at Everton again.

"Let's just be grateful we're not relegated. NSNO."

 

[Dymak]

We're never going to agree - you have an inherently negative mindset where you believe what we did was the best possible, whereas I believe we achieved the bare minimum or just above in those three years give the talent in the squad.

Moyes put together an incredible squad twice and was in the process of creating a third one; however, he never knew how to utilise that talent. The year we finished 4th was a bizarre year; we did it on a negative goal difference, and Bolton and Middlesbrough finished in the top seven. Martinez's achievements far outstrip that with the goal difference, style of play, win/loss record and points total in a league where the top five has been harder to crack than the top five were in 2004/05. To put it into context, if we had performed that season as we are now, we'd have wrapped up Champions League qualification before the Arsenal game.

That isn't to take away from Moyes the achievement - as I've said repeatedly, he was a godlike manager for us in his first five years in charge. But you can't live off past glories, and for his last three to four seasons here he was stagnant.

We really aren't going to agree if you think that finishing no lower than eighth during a period in which the manager was prevented from buying players, whilst simultaneously being forced to sell his best players, constitutes 'holding the club back'.

I don't think I'm being negative, I think you are being very unrealistic. Changing the manager at that point would have been disastrous, and I'm yet to hear the name of the alternative managerial option who would have outperformed Moyes under such circumstances?

 

[Ihaters]

Ridiculously negative - that comment is a relic of an era I hope I never see at Everton again.

"Let's just be grateful we're not relegated. NSNO."

You seem happy not to be in first this year

 

[Khalekan]

Of course we finished in the top 7 almost every year before he took over......

Oh that's right. It was actually once in the previous decade.

You go on about the beaten generation accepting mediocrity. I'm just saying that it was a hell of a lot better finishing in the top 7 than in the bottom half which has been a far more frequent occurrence in the past 45 years.

Indeed.

But it is mediocrity nonetheless and the beaten generation bought into the Moyes/Neville of top ten finishes being "fantastic for a club like Everton".

Fortunately there were those of us who called this nonsense for the bollox it was.

And it is killing the Moyes acolytes to see the myth that was their guru being stripped bare.

 

[Timak]

Ridiculously negative - that comment is a relic of an era I hope I never see at Everton again.

"Let's just be grateful we're not relegated. NSNO."

You hope to never see a era in which we finish in the top third of the league almost every season.

We can all play the ridiculously high standards game.

"All Martinez has done is get knocked out of the cup against the first decent side we played and bottle a game against Palace that could have got us a CL place."

Clearly that is ridiculous but at the end of the season we are likely to finish 5th. Moyes did that in the season we also reached a cup final. Yet that is the very season you say he started to hold us back.

I think Roberto is doing a great job. I think Moyes did a great job. I just find all this dancing on his grave stuff pathetic.