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Stan Lee Park
Player Valuation: £20m
Our record for the ten years before Moyes' first full season
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th
Our record in Moyes' 11 complete seasons
2002-038 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th
Depends on how you look at the world, I suppose, but I'd call that stabilising and building a platform to progress rather than "holding back".
1992-93 42 7 6 8 26 27 8 2 11 27 28 -2 53 13th
1993-94 42 8 4 9 26 30 4 4 13 16 33 -21 44 17th
1994-95 42 8 9 4 31 23 3 8 10 13 28 -7 50 15th
1995-96 38 10 5 4 35 19 7 5 7 29 25 +20 61 6th
1996-97 38 7 4 8 24 22 3 8 8 20 35 -13 42 15th
1997-98 38 7 5 7 25 27 2 8 9 16 29 -15 40 17th
1998-99 38 6 8 5 22 12 5 2 12 20 35 -7 43 14th
1999-2k 38 7 9 3 36 19 5 5 9 23 28 +12 50 13th
2000-01 38 6 8 5 29 27 5 1 13 16 32 -14 42 16th
2001-02 38 8 4 7 26 23 3 6 10 19 34 -12 43 15th
Our record in Moyes' 11 complete seasons
2002-038 11 5 3 28 19 6 3 10 20 30 -1 59 7th
2003-04 38 8 5 6 27 20 1 7 11 18 37 -12 39 17th
2004-05 38 12 2 5 24 15 6 5 8 21 31 -1 61 4th
2005-06 38 8 4 7 22 22 6 4 9 12 27 -15 50 11th
2006-07 38 11 4 4 33 17 4 9 6 19 19 +16 58 6th
2007-08 38 11 4 4 34 17 8 4 7 21 16 +22 65 5th2008-09 38 8 6 5 31 20 9 6 4 24 17 +18 63 5th
2009-10 38 11 6 2 35 21 5 7 7 25 28 +11 61 8th
2010-11 38 9 7 3 31 23 4 8 7 20 22 +6 54 7th
2011-12 38 10 3 6 28 15 5 8 6 22 25 +10 56 7th
2012-13 38 12 6 1 33 17 4 9 6 22 23 +15 63 6th
Depends on how you look at the world, I suppose, but I'd call that stabilising and building a platform to progress rather than "holding back".
Ihaters
Player Valuation: £35m
You keep saying that and you keep being wrong.
Firstly: The most important difference..
Replace: "fantastic for a club like Everton", with fantastic progress for a club with Everton's finances compared to those around us.
A club like Everton, and a club run by Kenwright are two different things.
Secondly: Nothing at all has been proved wrong, for either side of the argument, nor will ever be, because its all opinion based on the facts presented.
If you can prove that 15th to 6th isn't progress, then you've proven me wrong. If you can prove that another manager, even Martinez could of progressed us from 8th, to 7th, 7th, 6th with a sell to survive, then a sell to buy policy, then the same again, but you can't. Its impossible to do so.
Stop claiming victory where there is none to be claimed.
Also the beaten generation your despearately repeating like some sort of demented child is just daft, people of all ages think Moyes did a great job for us.
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Stan Lee Park
Player Valuation: £20m
Agree with all that, Mr Haters, especially the last bit. I've watched Everton since 1960 and I think Moyes did a great job.
Hehe it is fun to see the Moyes fans grasping at straws. "Acolytes" perhaps a bit strong but can see why the term is used. Sorry lads, but it is getting a bit of a chuckle from me! A crazy attempt at justifying the "top ten is fantastic for a club like Everton" quote is a curveball, didn't see that coming!
There's a difference between thinking Moyes did sod all and thinking he underachieved for his last three or four years here. It's not "ridiculously high standards" to be sickened by quotes like "knife to a gunfight" and bottling pretty much every big game that came his way during that time.
"Holding us back" isn't the same as being "bad at his job" - all it means is that he lacked the capability to take us on to another level during that time. That's why I'm saying three to four years, not six or ten or whatever. It's the point where the man was incapable of progressing us any further because of his obvious limitations.
There's a difference between thinking Moyes did sod all and thinking he underachieved for his last three or four years here. It's not "ridiculously high standards" to be sickened by quotes like "knife to a gunfight" and bottling pretty much every big game that came his way during that time.
"Holding us back" isn't the same as being "bad at his job" - all it means is that he lacked the capability to take us on to another level during that time. That's why I'm saying three to four years, not six or ten or whatever. It's the point where the man was incapable of progressing us any further because of his obvious limitations.
David Moyes from 2002 to 2008 certainly did. David Moyes from 2009 certainly did not - an average one at best, if not downright mediocre.
There's a distinction there, a massive one.
Stan Lee Park
Player Valuation: £20m
I think, like all Evertonians, I shared your frustrations in the last three years or so. Calling it mediocre is going a bit too far for me. Mediocre is what Newcastle, Aston Villa and other "big clubs" were in those three years.
Sorry, should have clarified - mediocre in terms of the talent he amassed in the squad. He was a genius in the transfer market for his entire tenure, but his usage of that talent waned dramatically from 2009 onwards in my view.
Point in case - I would never argue that Moyes didn't leave the backbone for what Martinez has achieved this season, but it speaks volumes that Martinez has been able to use it on a negative net spend and achieve what he has.
Stan Lee Park
Player Valuation: £20m
Looks like we might be in grave danger of almost agreeing here.
royalblue66
Player Valuation: £70m
And a man must know his limitations.
Ihaters
Player Valuation: £35m
Do you know what points total Martinez would of got... Deulofeu not old enough, Lukaku not available, Barry not available etc?
You know what the saddest thing about Moyes is? He had incredible potential.
When he first arrived, he was constantly adapting and looking for the answer in games that he had no right to win. After his first two years here I thought we DID have the next Alex Ferguson.
But what Ferguson never did was believe his own hype and think he was bigger than the club in public. He became part of the furniture there, a magnificent presence, but above all you always knew he would do anything and everything for the good of the club, not for the good of Alex Ferguson. The Beckham incident - it would have been easy to placate him, play him and offer him stupid money, but he made a brave call for the good of the club and was right to do so.
Look at Moyes with Rooney - up crap creek without a paddle and was on bended knee to give him anything he wanted for a bit of good news to ease the pressure on David Moyes.
That's why for me it's not exactly anger with Moyes, it's utter disappointment. A man who, if he had stayed humble and continued to learn his craft, adapting his managerial style as Ferguson did across two decades of evolving football, he could have been an absolute master at this management lark.
But then, he wouldn't have been David Moyes if he had.
A massive shame and I hope one day soon he looks in the mirror and realises where he went wrong and fixes it, as he's not old for a manager and he has the ability to change, if he loses his ego and understands his tactics are archaic and the modern game has moved beyond what it was in 2002.
Ihaters
Player Valuation: £35m
Indeed 5th is pretty impressive. But we've already told you that already. You just never accepted it till now
8th, 7th,7th,6th, 5th... seems he's continuing our rise nicely doesn't it? Long may it continue.
Indeed 5th is pretty impressive. But we've already told you that already. You just never accepted it till now
8th, 7th,7th,6th, 5th... seems he's continuing our rise nicely doesn't it? Long may it continue.
I'm "accepting" a record points total, wonderful football, heroic performances against top clubs and all that in a transition season. None of that is a continuation of anything.
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