How long did Moyes hold us back for ?

[toffeestillidie]

Bearing in mind Moyes reached 6th in the 06/07 season and departed at 6th last season (arguably no progress) anyone up for producing a comparison table showing where Martinez points total would position us in those years?

Such an exercise would be worthless at best, and nauseating Martinez-masturbation at worst.

I'm guess most on here don't have any kind of social science background, there is a very narrow method for fairly drawing conclusions from facts and statistics:

• We cannot know how Martinez would have progressed with a squad he had to build himself. All we know is that he's managed to take a squad almost entirely assembled by Moyes and make them play better than Moyes could.
• It is ridiculous to extrapolate Martinez' performance in one season and compare that to Moyes' entire tenure. These are grossly mismatched samples and make any kind of valid comparison impossible.
• While Moyes was managing Everton, Sir Alex Ferguson, possibly the greatest manager in english football of all time, was managing Manchester United. Martinez was gifted a huge power void in the absence of a strong Manchester United club. Martinez is most likely a beneficiary of the same perfect storm that has allowed Liverpool to (presumably) win the league. Basically they're competing in different environments, which further makes comparisons ridiculous. No one knows if Martinez could have won at OT with SAF at the helm, he's never managed to do it before.

Martinez is a fantastic manager, Moyes is a good manager with clear strengths and clear limitations. You can't say anything beyond that without selectively interpreting facts to suit your own conclusions.

 

[bluegirl]

Doesn't even bare thinking about this...

 

[nigelcoyb]

Do you know what points total Martinez would of got... Deulofeu not old enough, Lukaku not available, Barry not available etc?

Don't be silly now the variables are endless but the premise is Martinez picked up the same tools as Moyes and achieved "x" points. Lets see where potentially "x" would have put us in those years - just for fun.

 

[nigelcoyb]

Such an exercise would be worthless at best, and nauseating Martinez-masturbation at worst.

I'm guess most on here don't have any kind of social science background, there is a very narrow method for fairly drawing conclusions from facts and statistics:

• We cannot know how Martinez would have progressed with a squad he had to build himself. All we know is that he's managed to take a squad almost entirely assembled by Moyes and make them play better than Moyes could.
• It is ridiculous to extrapolate Martinez' performance in one season and compare that to Moyes' entire tenure. These are grossly mismatched samples and make any kind of valid comparison impossible.
• While Moyes was managing Everton, Sir Alex Ferguson, possibly the greatest manager in english football of all time, was managing Manchester United. Martinez was gifted a huge power void in the absence of a strong Manchester United club. Martinez is most likely a beneficiary of the same perfect storm that has allowed Liverpool to (presumably) win the league. Basically they're competing in different environments, which further makes comparisons ridiculous. No one knows if Martinez could have won at OT with SAF at the helm, he's never managed to do it before.

Martinez is a fantastic manager, Moyes is a good manager with clear strengths and clear limitations. You can't say anything beyond that without selectively interpreting facts to suit your own conclusions.

Just for fun.

 

[Ihaters]

I'm "accepting" a record points total, wonderful football, heroic performances against top clubs and all that in a transition season. None of that is a continuation of anything.

But his leage finish is pretty poor? Hasn't won anything, this is now an acheivement?
Of course it is, stop pretending that progress against the odds isn't an acheivement.. its is and it has been for a decade.

Martinez>Moyes, but neither have won anything and neither have/were holding us back.

 

[royalblue66]

I remember his first game at Goodison against Fulham, he bounded on to the pitch when he was introduced to the Goodison faithful full of energy which was a million miles Away from our blessed Walter, and it was like a breath of fresh air but after three or four Seasons it all became rather dire and we always seemed to be hanging on in there, the bottom line is he stayed too long. Will always be grateful to SAF for luring him away.

 

[canuckblue]

But his leage finish is pretty poor? Hasn't won anything, this is now an acheivement?
Of course it is, stop pretending that progress against the odds isn't an acheivement.. its is and it has been for a decade.

Martinez>Moyes, but neither have won anything and neither have/were holding us back.

I'd say Moyes' propensity for bottling it in big games held us back from at least some better chances at silverware in his tenure.

 

[toffeestillidie]

I'd say Moyes' propensity for bottling it in big games held us back from at least some better chances at silverware in his tenure.

True but I would liken the FA cup loss to Arsenal, getting battered by the Liverpool, and conceding 3 goals to Crystal Palace all qualify as "bottling it in a big game"

 

[Simon Smith]

How long did he hold us back?
Well in the eyes of those Man utd fans not long enough I guess is the answer to that question

 

[aloadofold......]

In fairness , Moyes came to our club at a time of crisis and he behaved as fireman in chief and did a really good job . Will always be grateful how he turned us around and made us a tricky proposition on game days. However , his mindset continued to be that of fireman and that could only go on so long . I would say the last 2 years were treading water a little and it wasn't so much he was holding us back as it was he clearly didn't believe he could move us forward. As much as I respected him I must confess found it hard to love him , I have no such issues with our new boss ..... I love him completely!

 

[bluemangroup]

Martinez masturbation sounds like fun.

 

[nigelcoyb]

If we finish with over 72 points (as Martinez is likely to do) transposing this sort of performance would have given us CL every year after the 06/07 season when Moyes got 6th.

Season, league finish

07/08 - 4th - 2nd
08/09 - 4th
09/10 - 3rd
10/11 - 2nd
11/12 - 3rd
12/13 - 4th -2nd

Hate stats.

 

[Duncan Disordely]

With hindsight he probably should have gone after the FA cup final. That was probably as far as he could take that squad with those tactics and mentality.

He should have walked on principle when we stopped spending, but that's another matter.

Its mad thinking back though, the first time I remember seeing "Moyes for United" "Moyes for a top 4 club" in the papers was during the end of the 04/05 season, before we'd even officially qualified for the CL qualifiers. I remember reading stories saying he should walk at the end of that season if we finished 4th or not as "he'd taken us as far as he could", and that from there the only way would be down for him. Maybe that was as far as he could take us, not through Everton being Everton, but due to him not a pasting his outlook and his tactics, and refusing to cash in on players at the peak of their value to strengthen the squad.

 

[Ihaters]

How long did he hold us back?
Well in the eyes of those Man utd fans not long enough I guess is the answer to that question

 

[Ihaters]

If we finish with over 72 points (as Martinez is likely to do) transposing this sort of performance would have given us CL every year after the 06/07 season when Moyes got 6th.

Season, league finish

07/08 - 4th - 2nd
08/09 - 4th
09/10 - 3rd
10/11 - 2nd
11/12 - 3rd
12/13 - 4th -2nd

Hate stats.

Don't hate stats, just don't post daft hyperthetical ones like that above.

I reckon we'll get 38 points you pessimist... The same as second place got last season.

Of course we probably wouldn't of got anything like that figure with the squad Martinez would of had back then though, before Moyes held us back with signings like Mirallas, Naismith, Stones, Oviedo and Gibson, and without the loans that became available this year like Lukaku, Barry and Deulofeu, but I like your thinking, its meaningless but I like it anyway.. Also you don't have to argue if Martinez is better than Moyes... he is.

Its a gutting season in a way this one, as well as an ace one of course, but Martinez deserves to be much higher in the table, and whilst he is doing a sublime job in transforming us, if 5th is no acheivement to you on a negative spend as you keep informing me, then its no acheivement to you, which is sad, its been a great year.
Its been a great decade truth be told.

Fortunately for me, I find progress is great and something I appreciate, and how Martinez has done is really impressive despite a season of what you would call abject failure as we didn't win anything, but with the manager providing an additional kick on our progress, personally I am just happy we got the right man to take Moyes good work and improve it further and make it his own, and make everyone except those that need silverware happy.