D
Deleted member 48881
Guest
Who we? I certainly didn't
Current Affairs Hijab campaign tweets pulled by Council of Europe after French backlash
- Status
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
By "we" I mean the coalition assembled under Operation Enduring Freedom, which included the US, UK, much of Europe and various other US allies scattered across the globe.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
You‘ve come to the right place……
Yarrgh
Player Valuation: £80m
Fight!
Perhaps the advert is suggesting it should be her choice?
Perhaps the advert is suggesting that this particular woman is wearing it 100% through her own choice?
Perhaps the problem is that she has brown skin and some people just don't like that?
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
James Carville (Bill Clinton's political strategist) slagged off wokeness the other day, and pretty convincingly:
Redirect Notice
www.google.com
It's not surprising that he feels that way - his strategy to beat Bush 41 was predicated on the notion that Democrats win elections when they focus on economic issues, and lose when they focus on social issues. Historically, the US economy does noticeably better with a Democrat in the White House, yet the Republicans poll better on the issue.
Indeed, and that's the problem - it's impossible that it's 100% her choice.
This article sums it up:
As a Muslim woman, I see the veil as a rejection of progressive values | Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
When even young girls are being dressed in hijabs, we need to ask what the female cover-up symbolises
"I am not assuming that the coverings all represent simple oppression. What I am saying is that many women who take up the veil, in any of its forms, do so without delving fully into its implications, significance or history. Their choice, even if independently made, may not be fully examined."
"... do those who choose to veil think of women in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and even the west, who are prosecuted, flogged, tortured or killed for not complying? This is not a freestanding choice – it can’t be. Although we hear from vocal British hijabis and niqabis, those who are forced cannot speak out. A fully burqaed woman once turned up at my house, a graduate, covered in cuts, burns, bruises and bites. Do we know how many wounded, veiled women walk around hidden among us? Sexual violence in Saudi Arabia and Iran is appallingly high."
It's nothing to do with racism; it is being opposed to the cultural subjugation of women. Even those who 'choose' to wear it are victims of that culture.
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
We could say the same thing with respect to free choice about many cultural aspects of Western society as well, though. Relatively few things are 100% "free choice" - there are a lot of attitudes and behaviors whose expression will result in cultural bullying, economic oppression and ostracism, even though they are no less defensible than the attitudes and behaviors which happen to be predominant at the moment. Yesterday's rebellious behavior often becomes tomorrow's new normal.Indeed, and that's the problem - it's impossible that it's 100% her choice.
This article sums it up:
As a Muslim woman, I see the veil as a rejection of progressive values | Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
When even young girls are being dressed in hijabs, we need to ask what the female cover-up symboliseswww.theguardian.com
"I am not assuming that the coverings all represent simple oppression. What I am saying is that many women who take up the veil, in any of its forms, do so without delving fully into its implications, significance or history. Their choice, even if independently made, may not be fully examined."
"... do those who choose to veil think of women in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and even the west, who are prosecuted, flogged, tortured or killed for not complying? This is not a freestanding choice – it can’t be. Although we hear from vocal British hijabis and niqabis, those who are forced cannot speak out. A fully burqaed woman once turned up at my house, a graduate, covered in cuts, burns, bruises and bites. Do we know how many wounded, veiled women walk around hidden among us? Sexual violence in Saudi Arabia and Iran is appallingly high."
It's nothing to do with racism; it is being opposed to the cultural subjugation of women. Even those who 'choose' to wear it are victims of that culture.
I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the issue of violence against women in Muslim society, though. You can hide a lot when you require a gender to cover their entire body, and there have always been those who would exploit an opportunity like that. Genital mutilation, revenge killings, the general treatment of women as chattel...there's a lot that's appalling which is tolerated and even encouraged in the more fundamentalist Muslim countries.
Very few cultural aspects of western society are now driven by religious fanaticism though. Therein lies the difference.
It's not racist to point out how problematic certain archaic aspects of Islam are, specifically in relation to women, for the reasons you state. We can't let the race card be played to defend violent misogyny.
I'm sure you mean well, but to claim it is impossible for a woman to have completely independant thought as to what she wears, well, that is a bit bonkers.
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
It's very different on this side of the pond. The norms of Western society are perpetually under attack from the religious right, and at least on abortion it looks like they are about to start winning.
I would argue that there is a strain of cultural fanaticism on both sides of the debate in Western society at this point, which is more or less what happens when the prospective combatants never talk to one another. Our politics are polarized, views are extreme and compromise is viewed as appeasement. That leads to strife, division and civil war rather than effective governance.
It's not that the woman cannot have an independent thought. It's that the choice is made in the face of enormous social pressures. All I'm saying above is that we do things in much the same way, it's just that the set of social pressures is different and results in different outcomes. Some of those are more desirable by any reasonable measure.
Human beings are tribal, which renders us xenophobic and intolerant by nature. Some of us are better about it than others. I won't claim to be better about it than most, but I will claim to be able to at least perceive the problem.
spectateur
Player Valuation: £30m
In your world, well perhaps.
Ghost Rider
Player Valuation: £8m
I have always got the impression that Islam is essentially a primitive religion that the west have only really been exposed to in the past 20 years, with immigration being much larger in scale.
It's clear Islam is quite sexist in the way it views women. Someone I work with who is Islamic by descent cannot be photographed, cannot date (have to marry instantly), has to cover head etc. No matter how you explain out of that, women to cover up and be treated as less than equal is primitive by modern standards.
No one religion is more primitive than the other - they're all ridiculous. Christianity is just as 'backwards' as Islam.
The western world, dominated traditionally by Christianity, become more secular - the middle east did not. Therefore there is a fundamental ideological conflict, and it's a big reason why multiculturalism has generally failed, as it's been an attempt to put jigsaw pieces together that don't fit.
We have our values; they have theirs. And, unfortunately, it is pragmatically a case of 'us and them' in this respect.
- Status