Heysal and Hillsborough disasters

[chicoazul]

It was more than one senior office, it was many of the senior police in charge that day.

As I said, the Taylor Report highlights "failure of police control" as the cause. And a lot of pain staking research and reporting went into that. More than you or I have done.

I just think that on that basis a simply apology from them, seemingly as "the cause", would have been nice.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Oh, and regarding the decision to open the gates...

As you will see, if fans were kept outside, they would have been crushed into the perimeter gates and turnstiles...

At the time, it would have been a no brainer to allow fans through to ease congestion. Unfortunately though, some fans stormed the gates and it was virtually impossible to measure who went through.

Its a tragic shame them pathetic gates were put up.

 

[chicoazul]

You know your sh-it on this dont you?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

It was more than one senior office, it was many of the senior police in charge that day.

As I said, the Taylor Report highlights "failure of police control" as the cause. And a lot of pain staking research and reporting went into that. More than you or I have done.

I just think that on that basis a simply apology from them, seemingly as "the cause", would have been nice.

You have mentioned this a few times and I didn't want to potentially show you up, but are you sure?

Sure the Taylor Report is one issue the Justice Campaign take issue with? - for avoiding any blame directed towards the police. (Though the actions of a few senior officers were criticised)

 

[chicoazul]

I read it on Wikipedia mate. You might have a point like.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I read it on Wikipedia mate. You might have a point like.

Pretty sure the report criticised senior officers for "failure of control", but that was it like, which is why no charges were brought but rather just a series of recommendations.

 

[Nebbiolo]

Its ok mate, I got your original point well. I just dont like it when its taken as an online point scoring thing which is often is but I had no issue with the way you approached it, nor do I have any right to have issue with your balanced opinion.

Definitely didn't intend to offend. I really do support the whole idea of remembering the deceased and offering sympathy to the relatives of those, which are the real victims in all of this.

My concern is people taking it to Princess Diana lengths. I'm not sure such people actually comprehend what the hell they're talking about, nor am I sure that they actually care much about anything other than making a fuss and the unfolding drama that they're actors in. To me, they spoil what should be tasteful and human reflection on past events.

And I do find it hypocritical that Heysal is forgotten. I watched the events occur, and am still upset to remember the images. The club made such little effort to own up to the culpability of a small section of its support, and perhaps consequently this has made the fans believe there is nothing there to mourn, to apologise for, or simply to recognise.

My view is that there is, and just like Hillsborough, the anniversary of Heysal should be etched in the collective consciousness of Liverpool fans.

 

[chicoazul]

From reading it, it was failure of police control as the major cause. Obviously its not the only cause as you've highlighted mate.

I dont want to go into this area, as I dont know too much on it, but wasnt there some police officers possibly cupable that retired early to avoid something.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Brain is starting to tick over now. But anyway, just found this when digging for my article. To conclude my opinion;

However in his Final Report he criticised the venue:

...in selecting Hillsborough as the venue for the cup semi-final, the Football ASsociation did not consider in any depth whether it was suitable....
​

He did not though consider that the choice of venue was the main cause of the disaster. Taylor made criticism of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club stating that they had contributed to the disaster because:

The Leppings Lane end was unsatisfactory and ill suited.
​

Others would criticise both the Club and Sheffield City Council for the fact that the ground did not have a valid safety certificate:

The certificate took no account of the 1981 and 1985 alterations of the ground.
​

Taylor made no criticism of the Emergency Services:

...no valid criticism can be made of the response by the St John Ambulance Brigade, by SYMAS, or by the Fire Brigade on 15th April.
​

However, a large number of people, including ambulance officers would say that Taylor was too generous in his comments regarding South Yorkshire Ambulance Service.

With the above in mind - its surprising that some place the entire blame at the Police. Collective failure, failure which doesn't warrant the necessity for justice, but rather serve as an important reminder. Thats me done.

 

[chicoazul]

Thats a point.

Nice work. Its been like LA Law on here today, y'honour.

 

[davek]

Leaving aside whatever went on outside the ground and how pressure was trying to be relieved by the operational commander on the day, what went on at the fences themselves was damning for the coppers. Pushing people back from the crush and back in; not opening up a gate...that was key in setting the tone regarding police conduct on the day, as was their initial response to set themselves up on the half way line to stop Liverpool fans scrambling free of their end who might be 'intent' on getting to the Forest end. They looked like complete wooden tops.

Couldn't-give-a-flying-fcuk fans + inept policing.

I think the original point of the thread has been obliterated, though. Neb's view on the hypocrisy of burying the Heysel issue for 25 years, and how it sits uncomfortably with the professional mourners who are choreographing the Hillsborough 20th anniversary stands, and is one worth making.

 

[chicoazul]

Probably my reaction didnt help.

So, sorry lids.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Leaving aside whatever went on outside the ground and how pressure was trying to be relieved by the operational commander on the day, what went on at the fences themselves was damning for the coppers. Pushing people back from the crush and back in; not opening up a gate...that was key in setting the tone regarding police conduct on the day, as was their initial response to set themselves up on the half way line to stop Liverpool fans scrambling free of their end who might be 'intent' on getting to the Forest end. They looked like complete wooden tops.

Couldn't-give-a-flying-fcuk fans + inept policing.

I think the original point of the thread has been obliterated, though. Neb's view on the hypocrisy of burying the Heysel issue for 25 years, and how it sits uncomfortably with the professional mourners who are choreographing the Hillsborough 20th anniversary stands, and is one worth making.

Agree some actions were shocking. Though a historical context is needed to understand it. It was only 4 years after Heysel. Concern was primarily focused upon hooliganism.

If you see pictures of the leppings lane stand from the view corner of the stand were "disturbances" were considered to be fighting, you'll see that the stand looks idential to any other week. All they had was radio messages of "disturbances".

 

[chicoazul]

Reading that stuff wrote in the Observer article turns my stomach every time.

Did anyone read it?

 

[davek]

Agree some actions were shocking. Though a historical context is needed to understand it. It was only 4 years after Heysel. Concern was primarily focused upon hooliganism.

If you see pictures of the leppings lane stand from the view corner of the stand were "disturbances" were considered to be fighting, you'll see that the stand looks idential to any other week. All they had was radio messages of "disturbances".

I think you put your finger on the policing problem there: everything was geared toward trouble, fans were potential law and order problems, so even people pressed up against a fence a couple of feet in front of them and clearly in distress were just seen as another problem that had to be dealt with the usual way: containment. Ultimately, beyond all the pointing at individuals, it was a systemic failure.