Healthcare

[Goat]

Thats just it, theres money around, its just that are wasting it elsewhere, I mean how much in cash has this War in Iraq cost? And still costing, not to mention the human cost, but thats another thread surely.

But maybe the goverment should post their accounts, then we can pour over them Everton style and point out where they are making mistakes.

And Bruce, thats a massive can of worms you have opened there. A few years back I had the misfortune to spead a vast amount of time at Alder Hey, the huge amount of asian children in there was amazing, I thought it was maybe a gene thing. But upon asking the nurses a vast amount had moved here as soon as problems happened, simply to claim our free healthcare.

Im not gonna go into that, but it does happen.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Thats just it, theres money around, its just that are wasting it elsewhere, I mean how much in cash has this War in Iraq cost? And still costing, not to mention the human cost, but thats another thread surely.

But maybe the goverment should post their accounts, then we can pour over them Everton style and point out where they are making mistakes.

This for me is the biggest need for a change of system. The government finances weren't in a good way even before the recession. Now they're right up the creek. Many estimates have put future health spending at around 50% of GDP, both here and in America. That simply isn't sustainable via taxation.

I agree that migration does open a can of worms but it does emphasise the moral issue that people object to getting 'something for nothing'. I think that line of thinking is inherent in human beings. People are naturally charitable though and I'm pretty confident that those with good cause would have little need to worry. Those that try and take the micky however...

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

Thats just it, theres money around, its just that are wasting it elsewhere, I mean how much in cash has this War in Iraq cost?


And Bruce, thats a massive can of worms you have opened there. A few years back I had the misfortune to spead a vast amount of time at Alder Hey, the huge amount of asian children in there was amazing, I thought it was maybe a gene thing. But upon asking the nurses a vast amount had moved here as soon as problems happened, simply to claim our free healthcare.

Im not gonna go into that, but it does happen.

i don't see the anmericans paying us back for our expenditure on their war.

there will be a lot of kids in alder hey that have been brought here for treatment by charities i reckon. specialist childrens hospitals across the globe will all have kids who are here just for treatment, and a.h. is one of those.
i can only heap praise on the people at alder hey as my son received fantastic treatment there.


being a socialist or thatcherite isn't a badge that most of us readily wear bruce, but i have become more aware as i have aged and from comparing my views to others that i "dress on the left".

 

[Goat]

Well I would never begrudge any sick person getting medical care, no matter where they are from, but it would be totally un fair for anybody to be refused medical care simply due to the inability to pay.

Everybodys story is different, there are people out there abusing the systems, that must stop, there really should be a huge beneift clampdown, they tried it with the disabled and totally cocked it, they should try it with the vast amount of bone idle people who have never worked a day in their life and yet have wealth beyond belief.

 

[Whitebootman]

Well I would never begrudge any sick person getting medical care, no matter where they are from, but it would be totally un fair for anybody to be refused medical care simply due to the inability to pay.

Everybodys story is different, there are people out there abusing the systems, that must stop, there really should be a huge beneift clampdown, they tried it with the disabled and totally cocked it, they should try it with the vast amount of bone idle people who have never worked a day in their life and yet have wealth beyond belief.

All of this, especially a clampdown on those that abuse the system. Some sort of payback after treatment for those who have not paid in.

 

[gordonjblair]

I'm by no means a wealthy man Reidy but I believe the first responsibility for me and my families wellbeing comes from me. Everything within my own power should be done to pay for things myself before asking anyone else to put their hands in their pockets. That's just my own view on life though.

So, for the sake of argument, if you came off your bike and an ambulance turned up, would you wave it away and call a cab?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So, for the sake of argument, if you came off your bike and an ambulance turned up, would you wave it away and call a cab?

I've paid a fair bit in national insurance down the years so don't really see why I would do that?

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

this is a pay-as-you-go system if there's an opt out.

when i moved back here, i was literally pennyless having spent everything on getting home (shipping etc), i had to find a job but in the meantime i struggled to get any kind of benefit as i had, in their words "decided i didn't want to live here any more" i got it in the end but it was about 3 months without, i found a job around the same time and a decent paid one as well, then i got the benefit as backpay, not exactly when it was required like. this was because i had decide to 'opt out'.

we came back because if we hadn't done so then, then we wouldn't have been able to afford to, your return fare is kind of your cutoff point when abroad and there is no benefit system etc for if it's needed. we had just had our first child, and with no kind of maternity pay or system that we have over here we were quickly using up our savings. i had a decent wage as well, but take out 1 income completely and it has a massive effect. if the mrs had gone back to work then the childcare would eat her wage and she would be working for next to nothing and a childminder would be bringing up our kid. they had only just introduced maternity leave, as in keeping your job open for 6 months should you want to return.

we also had to live with parents for almost a year when we got back, there weren't any council houses available in our area, as they had all been sold off.

 

[Dylan]

It is law that NOBODY can be refused medical care. If somebody comes in they can not be turned away for lack of insurance.

Plus there are all the free clinics (which are just as crowded as the NHS waiting lists) and all the providers who do free work at the big hospitals. I know at least two providers at one of the top pediatric children's hospital in the US who do not charge for the work. Which means a lot more people get the treatment than they need.

Our system isn't perfect, but having experienced both systems, I actually prefer the American one (my whole family went onto private healthcare in the UK after I came back to the US, so take that as you will).

I want to change one thing in my post. With all the hoop-lah going on about medical care in this country, I have spent a lot of time looking at it. The last paragraph in my previous post is now null and void.

We need public health care in this country. Currently, if you want fast coverage you have to have health insurance, which is ridiculously priced. I am getting out of the Navy and have been pricing plans and I am going to be payed such a huge amount for health care I could just about buy a brand new BMW for the money I am going to have to pay to equate what I recieve now in the military.

Keep private health care, but offer a free option so people can have piece of mind.

And don't get me started on the H1N1 vaccine being touted right now.........

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

when the cost of a course of drugs is mentioned on the news, i am always baffled as to why they are so expensive, i know the pharm. companies must invest a huge amount on research before a drug is produced but then the price of them is beyond belief, a couple of grand for a course of tablets is something i just dont understand.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's one of the perverse things about regulation. If you think of it from there point of view, if a drug hits the market in double quick time through a relaxed testing regime that then turns bad, they get it in the neck. If they have over strict testing that prevents a potentially useful drug from ever hitting the market, no one knows about it so they're in the clear. Hence we have an environment where a new drug has to go through several years of clinical trials before coming to market, often costing a good few hundred million, which then has to be clawed back before their patent expires.

It really isn't a great system.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

obviously some of the money will go back into things that are ongoing, like the search for a cure for cancer, and such.
seems as well that the government are happy to pay, yet refuse to give the nod to "alternative" medicines, surely they must test these herbal type things out though, just in case they are the wonder cure.
have there not been any wonder cures that have emerged from the east since the fall of the wall, cos they were mad keen on sciencetific research, or have all the scientists embraced capitalism and legged it with the notes the pharm companies.

 

[ChicagoToffee]

A day or two away and see what you miss.

First - excellent thread all. Good work.

Public healthcare is a must in the US. There are two things that stand in the way - profit and fearmongering (both of which have been elequently addressed in this thread).

Profit - it's not just the pharma companies that advertise but now its major hospitals and clinics touting the latest technologies and best surgeons. In Chicago, I regularly see TV commercials for at least 4 major hospitals. Why does a hospital need to advertise? It is a business with shareholders who demand return on investment. No hospital in the US is advertising cheaper service (except for Lasik eye suregery places) or 15% off your next coronary bypass.

Pharma - I don't think any pharma company is directly developing a drug for geezer erections. One was doing R/D on a promising drug for vasodilation or something tangentially related which proved unsuccessful but as a one off, it was discovered it helped Grandpa get it up again. After spending millions on R/D to get to the point to even discover the one-off side benefit, pharma wants to recoup that cash. It's even more troubling when these drugs are afforded patent protection - drug companies then have a limited window to cash in and recoup all of the R/D and make a profit before the formula goes generic.

Fear - Most Americans could care less to actually investigate the facts and make an informed decision (GJB - touches on the election testing point). Socialism / socialized = bad words in America. They connote communism, standing in lines for bread, anything French (which most Americans detest except for those tasty croissants) and spread too thin to be of any real benefit to anybody.

TxBill is right - we do have the best healthcare but I'd qualify that in terms of technology and care for specific ailments (i.e., cancer, HIV, etc...) after the fact. Personally, I think our preventative medicine is crap because we don't go to the MD until we're sick. Most don't take their car to the garage until its broken because it costs $$$ (even a marginal amount) to have someone tell you everything is working OK.

Nationalized healthcare scares Americans in thinking the quality of healthcare will dramatically decrease - sloppy, dirty hospitals and clinics with sub-standard MD's and a waiting list for even necessary and emergency procedures. Whether that is the case or not I think was the purpose of ToffeestillIdie's intial post - what can Americans expect from nationalized health care?

It's a tough sell for the Democrats - it's hard to explain why public health care is needed, or even a good idea, when most opposing believe it's the first step on the road to socialism or what ever kind of uber-liberal Euro-style government that's going to take 55% of my pay in taxes and tell me that I can't eat cheeseburgers because they're too fatty.

As an example, NPR this past Sunday lampooned a British government directive/program on cookie eating safety. It might have only been a local council - I forgot. Apparently you lot can't safely eat pointy cookies during tea so employers were being encouraged to hold training seminars and monitor tea breaks to make sure employees were eating safely. This a basic example of what Americans hear about other countries and why Americans want to do the exact opposite.

 

[ChicagoToffee]

Sorry for the ramble post.

 

[gordonjblair]

I want to change one thing in my post. With all the hoop-lah going on about medical care in this country, I have spent a lot of time looking at it. The last paragraph in my previous post is now null and void.

We need public health care in this country. Currently, if you want fast coverage you have to have health insurance, which is ridiculously priced. I am getting out of the Navy and have been pricing plans and I am going to be payed such a huge amount for health care I could just about buy a brand new BMW for the money I am going to have to pay to equate what I recieve now in the military.

Keep private health care, but offer a free option so people can have piece of mind.

And don't get me started on the H1N1 vaccine being touted right now.........

Bingo. This is what is being proposed, as far as I am aware.

The one thing with being in the military, is that you do get used to taking certain things for granted, one of which is the outstanding medical provision (although your guys are generally better looked after than ours).