2024/25 Harrison Armstrong

[Neiler]

Of course, if you're saying we've been mismanaged for years, I don't think that's a wild take...top to bottom, the club was rancid.

Gordon and Armstrong are 6 years apart. If we're producing a PL regular (which Armstrong isn't yet) every six years, I think that's a bit light for the Academy.

In terms of giving younger players a chance, whether through recruitment or the academy, the ones that were good enough were given chances and took them. There will always be exceptions, but to the post that originally started this, Armstrong being on loan at 18 or 19 isn't evidence of us not giving young players a chance. Just the opposite.

I mean, Lookman went to three other clubs before settling in Serie A when he was 25. That's not a good example of lack of patience from Everton.

Kean was a regular for us in 2020, but didn't settle in Serie A again until he was 25. Was Juventus impatient with his development as well?

Gordon was the obvious exception, but he played for us 65 times in the league by the time he was 22, and he obviously (even at the time) would have been a regular starter for us, at the very least, if we didn't need the money.

At some point it's down to the player. If someone starts thriving immediately after leaving, fair play. But at least 3 of those guys you mentioned took years to find their current form. No PL team is going to give a 20 year old 5 more years to find his way.

My intention wasnt a wild take mate, it was sharing my opinion.

There's a couple of years between them in terms of making appearances in the first team - for the academy is great. There have been others in the academy who have also made first team appearances despite those two also. I dont believe the issue is production myself. I mean Branthwaite FFS.

I havent mentioned chance at all, my point is that we have managed many of the young talents we have had badly and to our determined.

You can go through each individual case and - come up with an unhappy player, but the root cause is why are they unhappy.....there are stakeholders in each situation and if we are to improve not wasting our best young talent like Armstrong - then we need to learn and improve on the mistakes of the past. I beleive at the club there is a trend to villify a player if they are unhappy, instead of looking self refectively of the clubs role in it, i think we saw that with many of our young players we sold - its the club PR. You can believe those reasons or not as you illustrate individually, but undeniably there is a trend and the common denominator is the club and management.

Lads leave get better - that shouldn't happen and go on to be clutch players in trophy winning teams- its not good that someone like Gordon leaves here and a year later, helps a rival to their first trophy in 50+ years - there is no amount of attempted logic that turns that into a good decision or good management by us from a purely footballing perspective in developing youth.

Not sure what the counter point is here, we're brilliant at managing our best young players and we dont let go our best - the opposite is clearly the case.

We've been really bad at managing young players and its a problem that needs addressing.

 

[Osamabindiesel]

You see where he is at in the off-season. If you think he is ready, you keep him. If it turns out he isn't getting gametime during the season like you expected, we can send him on another half season loan. We need depth. That is for sure. I have liked everything I have heard and what I have seen. I would want to get a good look at him in preseason with our first team players and see what he has picked up at Derby. You can't really judge him until you see him with these guys.

 

[Lanolin]

My intention wasnt a wild take mate, it was sharing my opinion.

There's a couple of years between them in terms of making appearances in the first team - for the academy is great. There have been others in the academy who have also made first team appearances despite those two also. I dont believe the issue is production myself. I mean Branthwaite FFS.

I havent mentioned chance at all, my point is that we have managed many of the young talents we have had badly and to our determined.

You can go through each individual case and - come up with an unhappy player, but the root cause is why are they unhappy.....there are stakeholders in each situation and if we are to improve not wasting our best young talent like Armstrong - then we need to learn and improve on the mistakes of the past. I beleive at the club there is a trend to villify a player if they are unhappy, instead of looking self refectively of the clubs role in it, i think we saw that with many of our young players we sold - its the club PR. You can believe those reasons or not as you illustrate individually, but undeniably there is a trend and the common denominator is the club and management.

Lads leave get better - that shouldn't happen and go on to be clutch players in trophy winning teams- its not good that someone like Gordon leaves here and a year later, helps a rival to their first trophy in 50+ years - there is no amount of attempted logic that turns that into a good decision or good management by us from a purely footballing perspective in developing youth.

Not sure what the counter point is here, we're brilliant at managing our best young players and we dont let go our best - the opposite is clearly the case.

We've been really bad at managing young players and its a problem that needs addressing.

Have you slept through the last couple of years mate? We didn't sell Gordon because we were impatient or mismanaging him, we sold him because we were in dire financial straits and we'd developed him so well that someone was willing to give us £50m for him.

 

[Zatara]

You look at the top teams, like Nketiah left for Palace, Liverpool have a problem getting games for the likes of Quansag, Elliot, Morton etc who will all leave. City have lost Palmer because they couldn't get him game time.

Quansah (being linked in the media) and Elliott have barely played for them this season. Doak will be stuck behind Salah again next season unless he moves.

Great in terms of PSR if they sell but you'd have to think that all 3 of those have a high level of potential.

It reminds me a little of KDB and Salah when Chelsea moved them on, even a Palmer. They wanted game time, went for decent fees at the time and then massively stepped up.

Take those 3 RS players and pop them into our team and they may majorly improve.

Armstrong is an interesting one as hes perhaps in a somewhat similar situation to them if he stays...working with and around premier league players and coaches.

Might another loan be interesting for him, we'll have to see.

 

[catcherintherye]

Quansah (being linked in the media) and Elliott have barely played for them this season. Doak will be stuck behind Salah again next season unless he moves.

Great in terms of PSR if they sell but you'd have to think that all 3 of those have a high level of potential.

It reminds me a little of KDB and Salah when Chelsea moved them on, even a Palmer. They wanted game time, went for decent fees at the time and then massively stepped up.

Take those 3 RS players and pop them into our team and they may majorly improve.

Armstrong is an interesting one as hes perhaps in a somewhat similar situation to them if he stays...working with and around premier league players and coaches.

Might another loan be interesting for him, we'll have to see.

I'm not convinced on Elliott, but I agree in principle. The fees would need to be right. I've always sort of liked Morton too.

 

[catcherintherye]

Have you slept through the last couple of years mate? We didn't sell Gordon because we were impatient or mismanaging him, we sold him because we were in dire financial straits and we'd developed him so well that someone was willing to give us £50m for him.

Almost all of it up front too, which is unheard of.

We developed Gordon very very well. Now granted, most of it was probably fortunate, but the results were very clear.

 

[catcherintherye]

Brighton loan a ton of talent out as well. Enscio, Sarmiento, Ferguson, Barco. Mitoma spent time on loan. Adingra. Van Hecke.

They do, but so do lots of teams. It seems to work for them, they are an exception to a rule as it stands.

 

[pfim]

They do, but so do lots of teams. It seems to work for them, they are an exception to a rule as it stands.

I believe the commonality though is that young players need to play in matches. It's less important where they play, more important that they play.

 

[EFC_FRANCIS]

I believe the commonality though is that young players need to play in matches. It's less important where they play, more important that they play.

Possibly. But Cole Palmer had barely kicked a ball till he turned 21 and turned out ok.

 

[pfim]

Possibly. But Cole Palmer had barely kicked a ball till he turned 21 and turned out ok.

And Tom Davies played a ton and can't get a match. There are exceptions to every rule.

 

[tommytowne]

Hoping I can get a ticket for Hull City v Derby tomorrow. A must win game for both (or at least don't lose) which I'm assuming I'll get to see Harrison in action.

 

[Neiler]

Have you slept through the last couple of years mate? We didn't sell Gordon because we were impatient or mismanaging him, we sold him because we were in dire financial straits and we'd developed him so well that someone was willing to give us £50m for him.

You are confusing two different debates - the financial reasons of needing to sell him is a different point and not something I’ve mentioned in this debate. But have particular opinions on the real value of that to.

I spoke about the club ability to manage youth players, I think we managed Gordon’s development abysmally personally.

 

[Neiler]

Almost all of it up front too, which is unheard of.

We developed Gordon very very well. Now granted, most of it was probably fortunate, but the results were very clear.

Ultimately it’s poor value though. He’s worth what just under 100% of that you prob move him for 80 mill now - two years after selling him. A year after he left he got double digits PL goals and assists, played in the CL and became an International, heading of to a major Senior Tournamount.

I know he didn’t play but he made a huge contribution to Newcastle winning their first trophey in 50 years.

I’m not sure we got the best value proposition in the deal - though I’m aware on the necessity.

Which goes back to my point of us having awful in managing young players for the benifit of Everton.

As I’ve said production isn’t the issue in management of development.

 

[catcherintherye]

I believe the commonality though is that young players need to play in matches. It's less important where they play, more important that they play.

I think so, but it can also backfire.

 

[catcherintherye]

Ultimately it’s poor value though. He’s worth what just under 100% of that you prob move him for 80 mill now - two years after selling him. A year after he left he got double digits PL goals and assists, played in the CL and became an International, heading of to a major Senior Tournamount.

I know he didn’t play but he made a huge contribution to Newcastle winning their first trophey in 50 years.

I’m not sure we got the best value proposition in the deal - though I’m aware on the necessity.

Which goes back to my point of us having awful in managing young players for the benifit of Everton.

As I’ve said production isn’t the issue in management of development.

I mean with hindsight yes. But Im not sure he became that player with us. It could have been better, but 50m nearly all up front with a sell on % was a good deal.

As people know I was a huge fan of Gordon as a player, but he wasn't a Rooney. I don't think he was as good as Barley for us, or Brainthwaite. I think the club did well with that one.