Greek Financial Crisis

[DualityNSNO]

The tried and trusted brains behind this government owned bank needed bailing out 4 times. Not a good record for a bunch of bankers in the process of being allowed to control a countries finances. When they can't even run their own business without making a mess of it. The average Greek would make a better fist of it than some failed German bankers.

So instead of being German-hate fuelled for some reason for just 1 second, think of it like this: would you trust a Greek government to do better than the last 5 or 6 that have promised good things, then f**ked it up massively over and over and over again because of corruption, greed and laziness to the point that they have a debt the size of the country itself? Or would you trust the German ones that have a stable economy and have been giving money to Greece anyway, which makes it a bit less nonsensical, seeing as they are also the ones with this proposition?

Also the average Greek would take the money and sleep all day.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Much talk of tourism but remember said tourism comes to the end of it's summer cycle in about 2 months.

Err, yes.

Same as it ever was though. The vast majority of Greek tourism is seasonal, but it's still pushing 20% of GDP. Out of season many workers in the tourism industry will take on other work or will just be plain old fashioned unemployed. Also, a fair percentage of people in the industry will be short term immigrants who'll go back home for the winter. I should know, our daughter's been one of them !

 

[Toffeelover]

Err, yes.

Same as it ever was though. The vast majority of Greek tourism is seasonal, but it's still pushing 20% of GDP. Out of season many workers in the tourism industry will take on other work or will just be plain old fashioned unemployed. Also, a fair percentage of people in the industry will be short term immigrants who'll go back home for the winter. I should know, our daughter's been one of them !

I understand Woolly but it does bring problems in as much as the drying up of cash going into the economy and the reduction intyax revenues even if the It and VAT rates are pushed upwards.

 

[sd_1992]

So instead of being German-hate fuelled for some reason for just 1 second, think of it like this: would you trust a Greek government to do better than the last 5 or 6 that have promised good things, then f**ked it up massively over and over and over again because of corruption, greed and laziness to the point that they have a debt the size of the country itself? Or would you trust the German ones that have a stable economy and have been giving money to Greece anyway, which makes it a bit less nonsensical, seeing as they are also the ones with this proposition?

Also the average Greek would take the money and sleep all day.

This is a political thread on GOT.... governments are allowed to cripple the country and do whatever they want as long as they are left leaning....

 

[hullefc]

So instead of being German-hate fuelled for some reason for just 1 second, think of it like this: would you trust a Greek government to do better than the last 5 or 6 that have promised good things, then f**ked it up massively over and over and over again because of corruption, greed and laziness to the point that they have a debt the size of the country itself? Or would you trust the German ones that have a stable economy and have been giving money to Greece anyway, which makes it a bit less nonsensical, seeing as they are also the ones with this proposition?

Also the average Greek would take the money and sleep all day.

Syriza was elected in May 2015.

The previous lot were advised by KfW which explains why they 'f**ked up massively over and over again'.

'So instead of being German-hate fuelled for some reason', you want to stereotype Greeks being 'corrupt, greed and lazy' with your average Greek would take the money and sleep all day'. I'd rather give the money to your average Greek so they can 'sleep all day' rather than some washed up bunch of bankers that couldn't run a corner shop or taverna.

 

[potato]

guess that greek yoghurt aint selling so well

 

[DualityNSNO]

Syriza was elected in May 2015.

The previous lot were advised by KfW which explains why they 'f**ked up massively over and over again'.

'So instead of being German-hate fuelled for some reason', you want to stereotype Greeks being 'corrupt, greed and lazy' with your average Greek would take the money and sleep all day'. I'd rather give the money to your average Greek so they can 'sleep all day' rather than some washed up bunch of bankers that couldn't run a corner shop or taverna.

The previous government wasn't, and they still promised greener grass and delivered a rise in debt. As did the one before it.

It took me 5 minutes to look up KfW, they haven't advised all the other governments and also even their wiki is full of praise rather than these things you seem to be attacking them with. In fact, they've been voted world's safest bank in 2009, have been bailing out other banks for a long, long time, and have been working with Ireland in helping them reduce their debt. Do you actually have any proof of these 4 bailouts, out of curiosity?

Also this is literally the reason why they're in this situation anyway.

 

[hullefc]

The previous government wasn't, and they still promised greener grass and delivered a rise in debt. As did the one before it.

It took me 5 minutes to look up KfW, they haven't advised all the other governments and also even their wiki is full of praise rather than these things you seem to be attacking them with. In fact, they've been voted world's safest bank in 2009, have been bailing out other banks for a long, long time, and have been working with Ireland in helping them reduce their debt. Do you actually have any proof of these 4 bailouts, out of curiosity?

Also this is literally the reason why they're in this situation anyway.

KfW in Frankfurt: Police raid Germany's 'dumbest bank' - The ...

Uproar Over German Bank's Payout to Lehman - NYTimes ...

You just can't make things up. 2008 the 'dumbest' bank but then voted a year later, based on what they did the year before, the 'safest bank'. The Germans have an agenda to impose technocrats in Athens as they did in Rome. The mantra emanating from Berlin is 'you can have democracy as long as we like what you do'. And when we don't like what you and your electorates want we will send in the 'dumbest' bank in the world.

KfW certainly have been 'helping' Ireland reduce their debt.

Ireland is no model for Greece

And what did the Irish government to do?

"There’s another trick hidden in Ireland’s numbers. Alone of all EU countries, Ireland is the beneficiary of a fairly secret but very real policy of monetary financing. While potentially illegal and certainly opposed by ECB and EU policy, Ireland is actually paying off a substantial part of its debt to itself: Ireland’s Central Bank took over the debt of the infamous Anglo Irish Bank, whose speculative excesses cost the Irish economy nearly 20% of GDP when it became insolvent.

In effect, the government pays the Central Bank interest on the debt, which is then returned to the government in the form of surplus income. If Greece could get this deal, the cost of debt would plummet. This is not the only contrast. Under the bailout, the Irish government was free to bring in whatever spending or tax measures it chose to bring about the prescribed deficit reduction".

Right under the noses of the 'dumbest' bank in the world, KfW. Or did they advise the Irish government to implement this 'dodgy' practice?

And the result of their 'help' to the Irish government?

"More than 30% of Irish people live in deprivation, according to the government’s own statistical agency, not far below Greece’s 37%. Over 40% of children suffer deprivation experiences. One in 10 people is at risk of food poverty – hunger". One in 7 young people have left Ireland.

 

[Woolly Blue]

I understand Woolly but it does bring problems in as much as the drying up of cash going into the economy and the reduction intyax revenues even if the It and VAT rates are pushed upwards.

The reality is that changing the way of life so that fully paying taxes is seen as the right thing to do isn't going to happen overnight. Never mind having to alter people's psyche to do so, if all taxes were collected tomorrow it wouldn't have the full positive effect that just the dry numbers might suggest.

A fair amount of the money that isn't paid as tax ends up trickling down. As a simple example if someone's renting out rooms for about 40 Euros a night and is running a taverna selling main courses for 10 Euros each, and that income isn't declared then some of that currently trickles down to the cleaners, waiters, kitchen staff and only some of them will be "official" workers.

If you tax the rooms and meals properly then either the prices have to go up, which risks losing business, or the ancillary staff will be paid less. Basically if you fully enforce things from day one, you'll break the system, so you'll need to accept it won't happen overnight.

Also, most beach holidays are island based. Enforcing the tax laws needs people. On the larger islands, it makes economic sense to employ people to police the regime, but once you start getting to either more isolated areas on the main islands or smaller islands, it's not obvious that the extra tax take would justify the manpower required.

If you havn't travelled around the place it's probably hard to understand how much of a cash economy tourism is in many places in Greec e. Restaurants play by the book more than dhomatia owners so you're much quite likely to get a proper receipt for a meal, but I can't remember the last time we got a receipt for paying for apartments / studios/ hotel room in a holiday area.

 

[TheFinnFan]

Finlands part in this new package will be interesting. Watch and see how the rules will be bend again to save the face of finnish government in order to get this package through

 

[chewee]

Greece needs to bite the bullet and exit the Eurozone. A new package is just delaying the problem rather than solving it. Of course this will be a shattering experience for them but in the long run it may be their best option. Such reliance and closely tangled links with an already volatile market means they will forever be the fall guy during times of economic crisis.

The current Eurozone offer with further harsh cutbacks proposed and asset stripping (Privitisation), makes stable economic growth whilst paying back high interested rated debts almost impossible.

Thank God we did not join the euro. Destined to fail - and when it does Germany is in for one hell of a fall. One more mid scale economic crash could see europe fold like a pack of cards.

 

[hullefc]

The new master in Greece KfW.

Germany’s KfW May Lose Billions on IKB Bailout
By DEALBOOK DECEMBER 17, 2007 6:42 AMDecember 17, 2007 6:42 am


German state lender KfW could lose more than 5 billion euros ($7.3 billion) due to its participation in the bailout of German bankIKB, the head of KfW, Ingrid Matthaeus-Maier, told the Sueddeutsche Zeitung daily.

The bank has booked provisions of 4.95 billion euros to cover losses stemming from IKB’s off-balance-sheet exposure to U.S. subprime mortgage securities, Ms. Matthaeus-Maier said".

"In IKB's case, KfW, another state-owned institution and the bank's majority shareholder, has already made more than €6 billion available. This has resulted in a financial loss for the state, and therefore the German people -- one whose full extent is still unknown. The federal government has provided another €1.2 billion ($1.9 billion), using taxpayers' money, in the form of a capital increase. In other words, this money is lost to taxpayers".

 

[hullefc]

ECONOMY
13/7
New adjourned the session - Tough negotiations at all levels

Bigger letters Smaller letters Print Article mail to

On new individual consultations led eurozone leaders as the negotiation as time passes becomes tougher. This is the second adjourned the session started at 17:30 GMT and reportedly made a second quadrilateral with Tusk, Hollande, Tsipras and Merkel.

Announcing stopping consultations, Prime Minister of Malta Joseph Muscat wrote on twitter that there has been some progress, but even still a way to go.

From the first moment disagreements mainly Greek government and objections to certain parts of the text were intense and therefore held during the intermission quadripartite meeting between Tusk, Merkel, Hollande and Tsipras.

Immediately after the resumption of the meeting it became known that started meeting between Ev. Tsakalotos, Michel Sapen and Wolfgang Schaeuble, from which it later appears that the German Finance Minister resigned.

According to information reported envoy MEGA in Brussels, Christos Tsigouris, Alexis Tsipras does not accept transferable Greek assets 50 bn. Euros in a special company in Luxembourg to be sold for debt relief". Translated from a Greek newspaper. May be just rumour or the Greeks have done their research and can't do business with a person that has a vested interest in getting his hands on the Greek economy.

 

[hullefc]

Seems like the stereotypical 'lazy Greek' is a myth.

 

[Hibbertinho]

'Grexit'... 'AGreekment'... wish these media bulbs would pipe down with their punnery - any deal struck would take a 'Mer(i)kel'...

Seriously, though - the coverage is like something straight out of Brass Eye.