Greek Financial Crisis

[davek]

I can't believe that the austerity plans put forward by Alexis Tsipras to try and get things up and running again after the EU got pissed-off and pulled out of the negotiating's, are actually a lot worse than the original plans put forward by the EU that he rejected and put to a referendum to the Greek people. First thing the Greek's should do is try and get the tit out of power.

The original deal had no upside to it. That's why it was walked away from. This latest acceptance of more reform comes with funding and a more or less commitment on a nod and a wink that debts are going to be kicked well down the road so as to be of no concern to Greece whatsoever. So in that sense it's perfectly understandable that the previous 'deal' was inferior to this deal the Greeks now accept.

Imo, however, it's come at way too high a price. All of the above matters not one jot if you dont have sovereignty. Tsipras and his finance minister have effectively signed away Greek economic independence to a phalanx of technocrats who'll tell them what laws to make and stand over their shoulder making sure they carry them through on pain of having the next tranche of their fix stopped.

A party that came to power to end the Troika's control and to end austerity that accepts this situation in such a position of domestic strength is beyond all possible defence. A party of the left would have walked out last night and immediately set in motion the printing of their own bank notes, looked for alternative sources of financing the economy internationally and appealed for solidarity with the anti-austerity movement throught the rest of Europe. I hope against hope that enough numbers will be mobilised on the street and in the Greek Parliament to kill this deal.

 

[squonk]

I think this crisis is showing Europe for being what it is. A banking technocracy. Win or loose it's the end of the EU.

bollocks

 

[marty mcfly]

bollocks

Thanks for that reasoned argument.

 

[marty mcfly]

The original deal had no upside to it. That's why it was walked away from. This latest acceptance of more reform comes with funding and a more or less commitment on a nod and a wink that debts are going to be kicked well down the road so as to be of no concern to Greece whatsoever. So in that sense it's perfectly understandable that the previous 'deal' was inferior to this deal the Greeks now accept.

Imo, however, it's come at way too high a price. All of the above matters not one jot if you dont have sovereignty. Tsipras and his finance minister have effectively signed away Greek economic independence to a phalanx of technocrats who'll tell them what laws to make and stand over their shoulder making sure they carry them through on pain of having the next tranche of their fix stopped.

A party that came to power to end the Troika's control and to end austerity that accepts this situation in such a position of domestic strength is beyond all possible defence. A party of the left would have walked out last night and immediately set in motion the printing of their own bank notes, looked for alternative sources of financing the economy internationally and appealed for solidarity with the anti-austerity movement throught the rest of Europe. I hope against hope that enough numbers will be mobilised on the street and in the Greek Parliament to kill this deal.

That's the reason it's the end of the EU. It's been exposed as the anti-democratic banking run union that it is. This deal won't hold unless as you say there's an agreement behind the scenes for serious debt relief and even then Tsipras will unlikely last that long. His party will force him out. Once that happens Greece will leave the Euro as there is no deal to be made and that will bring about the unraveling of the EU.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

The original deal had no upside to it. That's why it was walked away from. This latest acceptance of more reform comes with funding and a more or less commitment on a nod and a wink that debts are going to be kicked well down the road so as to be of no concern to Greece whatsoever. So in that sense it's perfectly understandable that the previous 'deal' was inferior to this deal the Greeks now accept.

Imo, however, it's come at way too high a price. All of the above matters not one jot if you dont have sovereignty. Tsipras and his finance minister have effectively signed away Greek economic independence to a phalanx of technocrats who'll tell them what laws to make and stand over their shoulder making sure they carry them through on pain of having the next tranche of their fix stopped.

A party that came to power to end the Troika's control and to end austerity that accepts this situation in such a position of domestic strength is beyond all possible defence. A party of the left would have walked out last night and immediately set in motion the printing of their own bank notes, looked for alternative sources of financing the economy internationally and appealed for solidarity with the anti-austerity movement throught the rest of Europe. I hope against hope that enough numbers will be mobilised on the street and in the Greek Parliament to kill this deal.

The Germans don't look at all happy.

 

[marty mcfly]

The Germans don't look at all happy.

Maybe the German people are waking up to the fact they are only keeping this going long enough so that some of their financial elite don't get wiped out by a Grexit but instead the bill gets pinned on to the German people who will in the end be the ones who pay.

 

[davek]

The Germans don't look at all happy.

That's because they wanted them out of the Eurozone.

The German's have lost massive diplomatic credibility in this crisis and the mechanics of who the EU is run for the benefit of has been laid bare.

 

[davek]

That's the reason it's the end of the EU. It's been exposed as the anti-democratic banking run union that it is. This deal won't hold unless as you say there's an agreement behind the scenes for serious debt relief and even then Tsipras will unlikely last that long. His party will force him out. Once that happens Greece will leave the Euro as there is no deal to be made and that will bring about the unraveling of the EU.

Politically the left will fracture now, you'd have to think. Syriza will split. It's a dogs breakfast of different factions anyway, so that wont be too difficult. It's a sell out by Syriza's leaders, no question. Hopefully whatever outflanks it from the left wont have to suffer the burden of being tarred with the same brush as Tsipras and his group.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That's because they wanted them out of the Eurozone.

The German's have lost massive diplomatic credibility in this crisis and the mechanics of who the EU is run for the benefit of has been laid bare.

It's often said that this is pushed by Germany, but many of the nations in the east and north of Europe feel the same. The Czechs, for instance, have no sympathy for the Greeks at all and believe they should start living within their means.

I wouldn't go as far saying that's a consensus, but there are enough people in Europe of that mindset to suggest that this isn't just Germany saying jump.

 

[marty mcfly]

Politically the left will fracture now, you'd have to think. Syriza will split. It's a dogs breakfast of different factions anyway, so that wont be too difficult. It's a sell out by Syriza's leaders, no question. Hopefully whatever outflanks it from the left wont have to suffer the burden of being tarred with the same brush as Tsipras and his group.

I said from the beginning that at each point of failure with the deal a new hard line government will take power. The next on the list is Golden Dawn and people should be worried because this is exactly how Nazism rose.

 

[marty mcfly]

It's often said that this is pushed by Germany, but many of the nations in the east and north of Europe feel the same. The Czechs, for instance, have no sympathy for the Greeks at all and believe they should start living within their means.

I wouldn't go as far saying that's a consensus, but there are enough people in Europe of that mindset to suggest that this isn't just Germany saying jump.

It's not Germany. It's the neo-liberals controlled by the banking industry. The German people want Greece kicked out. I suspect that's what the Czechs and other Eastern European's want too.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's not Germany. It's the neo-liberals controlled by the banking industry. The German people want Greece kicked out. I suspect that's what the Czechs and other Eastern European's want too.

I'm not sure I know what that means I'm afraid.

 

[peteblue]

It's a dogs breakfast and will fall apart within 6 months.........

 

[marty mcfly]

I'm not sure I know what that means I'm afraid.

Neo-liberals = whose advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy (from Wikipedia)

The neo liberal politicians are the puppets of the banking industry.

Ironically I actually agree with neo liberal economic thinking since I'm a libertarian but in this case the moral hazard has to also be applied to the creditors. They have to take responsibility for lending to people that can't afford to pay it back and in that case they deserve and should loose at least some of their money.

They are manipulating the facts to pin private debt around southern Europe on to the tax payers of Southern Europe to bail out the private banks and Financial Elite. This is Socialist Capitalism not Libertarian-ism which is why I pull my hair out when I hear this is a battle of right vs left. It's a battle between democracy and technocracy.

 

[marnie]

It's a dogs breakfast and will fall apart within 6 months.........

I honestly don't think it will take that long mate.