Greek Financial Crisis

[bizzaro]

"No State or group of States has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other State."

First of all being a creditor does not give you the authority to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign state, and secondly if you wish it to be considered an external affair, you will find that the declaration makes no distinction between internal and external affairs.

You can if its within the confines of International finance law. That Greece has signed up to via treaties.

Remember - Greece is a Lisbon Treaty signatory.

That gives the Eurozone members the right to ensure that Greece meets its treaty obligations.

They're also a WTO member. Signed up via treaty to that.


Remember we had this discussion. All international law comes from treaties.

 

[bizzaro]

Switzerland arnt in it bizzaro as far i know might be wrong like

They're in the EEA (European Economic Area) via a bilateral agreement. They're a non-EU member.

This means they're signed up to specific agreements with the other EEA members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

 

[bizzaro]

"No State or group of States has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other State."

First of all being a creditor does not give you the authority to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign state, and secondly if you wish it to be considered an external affair, you will find that the declaration makes no distinction between internal and external affairs.

Title I of Part I of the consolidated Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union

"Member States cannot exercise competence in areas where the Union has done so."

• the internal market

• economic, social and territorial cohesion

 

[bizzaro]

"No State or group of States has the right to intervene, directly or indirectly, for any reason whatever, in the internal or external affairs of any other State."

First of all being a creditor does not give you the authority to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign state, and secondly if you wish it to be considered an external affair, you will find that the declaration makes no distinction between internal and external affairs.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cons...E_I:_CATEGORIES_AND_AREAS_OF_UNION_COMPETENCE

TITLE I: CATEGORIES AND AREAS OF UNION COMPETENCE

Article 3
1. The Union shall have exclusive competence in the following areas:

(c) monetary policy for the Member States whose currency is the euro;


This means the EU is well within its legal rights when dealing with Greece.

Greece is in violation of its treaty obligations under the Lisbon treaty.

 

[The Esk]

You can if its within the confines of International finance law. That Greece has signed up to via treaties.

Remember - Greece is a Lisbon Treaty signatory.

That gives the Eurozone members the right to ensure that Greece meets its treaty obligations.

They're also a WTO member. Signed up via treaty to that.


Remember we had this discussion. All international law comes from treaties.

I'm not going to get into an argument about international law, but just so you know for the future not all international law "comes from treaties" - that may be a discussion for another day.

The fact is that the European institutions are interfering with the democratic will of the Greek people. The Greeks elected a party with a very clear mandate and the European institutions are doing all they can to force the executive of the Greek State to act outside that legitimate democratic mandate.

It is a modern day form of Imperialism.

 

[bizzaro]

I'm not going to get into an argument about international law, but just so you know for the future not all international law "comes from treaties" - that may be a discussion for another day.

The fact is that the European institutions are interfering with the democratic will of the Greek people. The Greeks elected a party with a very clear mandate and the European institutions are doing all they can to force the executive of the Greek State to act outside that legitimate democratic mandate.

It is a modern day form of Imperialism.

The Greeks elected a party that basically said we will not pay back money that we owe.

We will not abide by the treaties that previous Greek governments signed up to on behalf of the Greek people.

Can no one not see this as big problem?


http://www.britannica.com/topic/international-law

States that breach international rules suffer a decline in credibility that may prejudice them in future relations with other states. Thus, a violation of a treaty by one state to its advantage may induce other states to breach other treaties and thereby cause harm to the original violator. Furthermore, it is generally realized that consistent rule violations would jeopardize the value that the system brings to the community of states, international organizations, and other actors. This value consists in the certainty, predictability, and sense of common purpose in international affairs that derives from the existence of a set of rules accepted by all international actors. International law also provides a framework and a set of procedures for international interaction, as well as a common set of concepts for understanding it.

 

[edge]

They're in the EEA (European Economic Area) via a bilateral agreement. They're a non-EU member.

This means they're signed up to specific agreements with the other EEA members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Swiss law
Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection and Sports, 2004) by avoiding involvements in international conflicts and thus the disenfranchisement of parts of its population affected by them. It also serves to keep business relations with both parties, to keep the European Geopolitical balance, and to provide a space for mediation and negotiation (Panchaud, 2009).
anyway back to the Greeks they are in for a bad time no matter which way they jump, only good outcome for them would be a debt right off like some Africans got , cant see that happening though

 

[The Esk]

The Greeks elected a party that basically said we will not pay back money that we owe.

We will not abide by the treaties that previous Greek governments signed up to on behalf of the Greek people.

Can no one not see this as big problem?

There are 3 established remedies for struggling nations and throughout the history of economics they have been (i) devalue your currency (ii) adopt what are now known as "austerity" policies to reduce Government expenditure and (iii) agree a debt write down which provides room for the nation to recover, and provides hope that at least some of the debt will be repaid.

If we look at Greece (i) they can't do (within the Euro) (ii) they've been doing that for several years and with no positive effect, in fact a negative effect as the recession just spirals out of control.

Point (iii), debt write down is one of the principal pillars of Syriza's mandate. It is the only realistic way for Greece to stay in the Euro and provide room to grow their economy to at least realistically start paying debts once more.

Go and read the IMF (yes the IMF) view - [URL='https://varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/greece-dsa1.pdf']IMF’s latest debt sustainability analysis (DSA)[/url]

 

[bizzaro]

There are 3 established remedies for struggling nations and throughout the history of economics they have been (i) devalue your currency (ii) adopt what are now known as "austerity" policies to reduce Government expenditure and (iii) agree a debt write down which provides room for the nation to recover, and provides hope that at least some of the debt will be repaid.

If we look at Greece (i) they can't do (within the Euro) (ii) they've been doing that for several years and with no positive effect, in fact a negative effect as the recession just spirals out of control.

Point (iii), debt write down is one of the principal pillars of Syriza's mandate. It is the only realistic way for Greece to stay in the Euro and provide room to grow their economy to at least realistically start paying debts once more.

Go and read the IMF (yes the IMF) view - IMF’s latest debt sustainability analysis (DSA)

'To ensure that debt is sustainable with high probability, Greek policies will need to come back on track but also, at a minimum, the maturities of existing European loans will need to be extended significantly while new European financing to meet financing needs over the coming years will need to be provided on similar concessional terms. But if the package of reforms under consideration is weakened further—in particular, through a further lowering of primary surplus targets and even weaker structural reforms—haircuts on debt will become necessary'

The Greek (Syritza) are arguing that haircuts are to happen first.

The Europeans are saying get on your financial targets and keep to them.

...

Which is actually the fair argument?

 

[hullefc]

The Greeks elected a party that basically said we will not pay back money that we owe.

We will not abide by the treaties that previous Greek governments signed up to on behalf of the Greek people.

Can no one not see this as big problem?


http://www.britannica.com/topic/international-law

States that breach international rules suffer a decline in credibility that may prejudice them in future relations with other states. Thus, a violation of a treaty by one state to its advantage may induce other states to breach other treaties and thereby cause harm to the original violator. Furthermore, it is generally realized that consistent rule violations would jeopardize the value that the system brings to the community of states, international organizations, and other actors. This value consists in the certainty, predictability, and sense of common purpose in international affairs that derives from the existence of a set of rules accepted by all international actors. International law also provides a framework and a set of procedures for international interaction, as well as a common set of concepts for understanding it.

So you are saying all treaties are binding on any government that follows the one that signed them?

 

[Kiwi]

Damo's got back onto wikipedia again I see.

The common sense thing would be to extend deadlines for debt repayment in my eyes as well as possibly write off some debt. Greece is being pushed between two walls with the fresh air around it rapidly shrinking, and if Greece goes they could potentially take a fair whack of the EU with them.

 

[Jib in lad]

OXI.

 

[Joey66]

OXI.

I agrees simpler out of the EU and we can blow the channel tunnel up!lol the french are putting shower units in for the camps in Calais! cant find them hostels like just camps by the tunnel in the woods! what a farce! we only survived the war as a island!

 

[roydo]

Like a ! dont you mate/

 

[marnie]

If you have holidayed here as a child.......... brought your family here and felt safe........................ Say a Prayer for us tonight.Tomorrow is promised to nobody. x