Current Affairs German far right in the former East Germany

[Drico]

I do really think your attempt to position East Germany and its citizens as luddites and backwoodsmen desperate to be relieved of their 'Third World' status is obscuring matters for you.

It's just as well I am doing nothing of the sort, then. My other half is East German. Some of her relatives were party people, in the political sense. Most East Germans are fantastic, but a minority are very comfortable with totalitarianism.

You'd have fit in really well, there.

 

[Drico]

There was actually constant movement of East Germans into West Germany during the 40 years of its existence.

Were high value citizens denied that right to leave? Yes. But permits could be applied for and invariably given for most other people to visit family in the west.

This 'getting shot down at the Wall' is an emotional and seductive portrayal for Cold War buffs, but it doesn't stand the sniff test with reality.

Dave, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I thought we could have a discussion about the GDR and its politics seeing as my family actually lived behind the wall, but when you are rewriting history now and sanitising that dictatorship, well, then there's no point.

 

[catcherintherye]

The far left met the far right in a pact of mutual convenience. That's ALL that mattered and matters. Ideology is irrelevant when the outcome is precisely the same.

Well the Soviet state did a deal with the German state yes. Are you aware of what happened to the far left in Germany, and trade unionists, socialists, feminists etc? Ernst Thalman et al.

Stalin pursued the same policy as the British ruling class as well, including Prime Minister Chamberlain. Does this mean that Conservatives and Nazis also meet?

 

[catcherintherye]

The freedom to travel to see their parents or lovers or friends on the other side of their city.

Oh so the freedoms outlined above don't matter?

And look, both sides were very comfortable with the wall being built. That's the reality. Currency union was almost impossible in said city, when it existed under two different systems.

But do you think women have a right to do a job they were qualified for, or not be removed purely on the gender? That would be interesting to know.

 

[Drico]

There were moves towards wanting a different, more democratic form of socialism. They were given something wholly different to that, and honestly possibly worse than the poor version of socialism they loved under before. If they would have known that was on offer, you wouldn't have seen those protests.

Milton Friedman and his acolytes had carte blanche to put their utopia into practice, and surprise surprise it totally tanked when taken out of undergraduate textbooks and hit reality.

This is all true. People wanted a better life and basic freedoms - not an experiment.

 

[catcherintherye]

Any system that imprisons people in their own country is, by defintion, backward. Any system that divides a great city in two and walls in people against their will is, by definition, backward.

Everything else is choreography.

The GDR didn't singularly divide their city in 2. And do you think America is backwards for building walls? It will be interesting where this does or doesn't apply.

 

[catcherintherye]

This is all true. People wanted a better life and basic freedoms - not an experiment.

They did. And there were lots of failings of the GDR. But it's like it's not done justice from what I can see. It's incredibly one sided, and very few of the positives seem to be acknowledged.

The GDR needed modernising too, and it was incapable of doing so, which was a huge shame.

 

[Drico]

Well the Soviet state did a deal with the German state yes. Are you aware of what happened to the far left in Germany, and trade unionists, socialists, feminists etc? Ernst Thalman et al.

Stalin pursued the same policy as the British ruling class as well, including Prime Minister Chamberlain. Does this mean that Conservatives and Nazis also meet?

Absolutely it does! The UK has already had its far right goverment over the last decade. Johnson, Truss, Brexit, and Stop The Boats, are all evidence of that.

The point I am making is that the extemes are much the same in the end. You can get semantic - but the AfD and Sahra Wagenknecht are two sides of the same coin. In the end, people end up dead.

 

[Drico]

The GDR didn't singularly divide their city in 2. And do you think America is backwards for building walls? It will be interesting where this does or doesn't apply.

The SED built a wall. If we cannot agree on this, then there is no point having any discussion.

 

[catcherintherye]

Absolutely it does! The UK has already had its far right goverment over the last decade. Johnson, Truss, Brexit, and Stop The Boats, are all evidence of that.

The point I am making is that the extemes are much the same in the end. You can get semantic - but the AfD and Sahra Wagenknecht are two sides of the same coin. In the end, people end up dead.

Ok so we now have Sahra W, communists, socialists, conservatives, Nazis the same? I'm not really sure that is credible mate.

Sometimes countrys make alliances for short term need. And look, I am very critical of Stalinfor doing it, while communists in Germany were being murdered (kind of evidence they are not the same). But pragmatically it was probably necessary.

 

[catcherintherye]

The SED built a wall. If we cannot agree on this, then there is no point having any discussion.

The city was divided before the wall was built though. That's the reality. And look, there were a lot of Nazis in the Western state, and I can understand why that was a concern for an anti-Nazi state.

 

[Drico]

Oh so the freedoms outlined above don't matter?

Of course the freedoms above matter! But, my God, they start to mean a whole lot less than they should when you get walled in and denied the right to travel (which people are still denying on this thread). There was lots of very good things in the GDR. Women's right were often better than in West Germany. But any system that can only exist by imprisoning its population is doomed to failure. This is not controversial.

 

[Drico]

The city was divided before the wall was built though. That's the reality. And look, there were a lot of Nazis in the Western state, and I can understand why that was a concern for an anti-Nazi state.

The city was divided politically but you could cross from East to West and vice versa with ease until the wall was built. Families were divided by that wall. That changed everything in terms of daily life. It wasn't built to "protect" people against Nazis. The plain people of Thuringia in East Germany gave Hitler his big breakthrough, for Heaven's sake. The Nazis were already in the house! It was built to stop people leaving.

Building that wall and shooting people crossing it were crimes against humanity.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

Well the Soviet state did a deal with the German state yes. Are you aware of what happened to the far left in Germany, and trade unionists, socialists, feminists etc? Ernst Thalman et al.

Stalin pursued the same policy as the British ruling class as well, including Prime Minister Chamberlain. Does this mean that Conservatives and Nazis also meet?

 

[Drico]

Ok so we now have Sahra W, communists, socialists, conservatives, Nazis the same? I'm not really sure that is credible mate.

Sometimes countrys make alliances for short term need. And look, I am very critical of Stalinfor doing it, while communists in Germany were being murdered (kind of evidence they are not the same). But pragmatically it was probably necessary.

Oh dear.

"Pragmatically it was probably necessary".

I hope you are also critical of Stalin for the scores of millions he butchered as well? Or was that "necessary" too?

This thread has been an eye-opener. I mean, I think that there was plenty about the GDR that deserves celebrating - not least my better half - and plenty about the West that deserves condemnation. But I hadn't realised people were so relaxed about totalitarianism in some of its guises. I find some views here pretty offensive, to be honest, so I'll not add to the fire.

Have a good evening, All. I'll go back to the football, I think. As ugly as it is, it's not quite rolling in the mud as much as this thread.