Current Affairs German far right in the former East Germany

[Yarrgh]

I may be biased, but to me that is not some great economic state, that's the behaviour of a parasite.

All great economically powerful states can be accused of being parasites and it's probably justifiable.

 

[Drico]

I think @Drico argument that they were a moribund state whose backward workers post-1989 were dumped on the heroically entrepreneurial FRG are stretching reality a bit.

I suppose if you can mischaracterise Sahra Wagenknecht as a progressive leftie, you can mischaracterise my posts on this subject just as you have now done.

I have a degree in economics, Dave. You don't need that to know that every single communist state was economically backward by comparison to the West in terms of its "readiness" for the "free market." That was a simple function of communism and its obliteration of innovation because "the state was responsible for that". When that system fell, those economies were on their faces. Did they have great workers? Indeed, they did. Lots of skilled masters. And women's rights were superior to those in the West - except for things like, you know, freedom.

The GDR was treated horrifically as Helmut Kohl imposed the usual capitalist shock doctrine on it. Instead of slowly reintegrating the East and converging slowly, his hawkishness ensured a terrible shock to what was, yes, an economy utterly unsuited to the tender mercies of capitalism. But - and here's the kicker - the East German voters couldn't vote enough for Kohl in the first unification election. They delivered him a landslide and ensured his place in history as one of the greatest Chancellors in historical terms (as unfair as that seems to me). And just as they were taken in by wild promises then, some of the very same people are being taken in by the similarly seductive lies of the AfD now. Fool me once...

 

[Drico]

The horse shoe theory where the left and fascists absolutely despise each other actually somehow magically agree?

Oh, there was nothing magical about the Hitler-Stalin pact.

 

[Drico]

Some people would reply: "well if it was that good, why did it fall and why was there a popular uprising against it". To which the answer is that the economic and social reforms set out by the East German hierarchy were not forthcoming at greater speed in the 1980s and the unstable situation with Gorbachev's USSR weakened the situation for them, making them cautious.

It fell because you can only get away with shooting so many people who want to visit their family on the other side of the street so many times before all the good stuff starts to get a bit jaded.

And that's the problem with people like Sahra Wagenknecht. She can have all the "progressive" policies in the world (heck, I tend to think she isn't a million miles away from sanity on a number of issues), but you've got to remember one thing: she was comfortable walling in her own people and shooting any who dared escape.

 

[catcherintherye]

Oh, there was nothing magical about the Hitler-Stalin pact.

No there wasn't. It was a pact of mutual convenience, not ideological agreement.

They did sort of murders millions of the others soldiers during WW2 mate, and Hitler was not a known fan of the Soviet Union like.

 

[catcherintherye]

All great economically powerful states can be accused of being parasites and it's probably justifiable.

And there's a difference between being powerful, and having a superior economic model at that moment.

 

[catcherintherye]

Some people would reply: "well if it was that good, why did it fall and why was there a popular uprising against it". To which the answer is that the economic and social reforms set out by the East German hierarchy were not forthcoming at greater speed in the 1980s and the unstable situation with Gorbachev's USSR weakened the situation for them, making them cautious.

In truth, though, the seeds of re-unification were being laid east and west of the Wall before 1989 - although it wasn't supposed to be the capitulation it turned into as western sponsored protests - especially via civic groups like the Lutheran Church - accelerated the process beyond the GDR's control.

It'd take years though for east Germans to get over the shock of unification and the full meaning of what it meant to be 'free' on the terms of west Germany - including the freedom to be unemployed, the social dislocation resulting from the loss of their own culture, the reintroduction of class-conflict, and the steady flow of westward migration.

People looking at the political situation today in the old east Germany need to be cognisant of what was lost as well as what was gained with reunification.

There were moves towards wanting a different, more democratic form of socialism. They were given something wholly different to that, and honestly possibly worse than the poor version of socialism they loved under before. If they would have known that was on offer, you wouldn't have seen those protests.

Milton Friedman and his acolytes had carte blanche to put their utopia into practice, and surprise surprise it totally tanked when taken out of undergraduate textbooks and hit reality.

 

[catcherintherye]

I suppose if you can mischaracterise Sahra Wagenknecht as a progressive leftie, you can mischaracterise my posts on this subject just as you have now done.

I have a degree in economics, Dave. You don't need that to know that every single communist state was economically backward by comparison to the West in terms of its "readiness" for the "free market." That was a simple function of communism and its obliteration of innovation because "the state was responsible for that". When that system fell, those economies were on their faces. Did they have great workers? Indeed, they did. Lots of skilled masters. And women's rights were superior to those in the West - except for things like, you know, freedom.

The GDR was treated horrifically as Helmut Kohl imposed the usual capitalist shock doctrine on it. Instead of slowly reintegrating the East and converging slowly, his hawkishness ensured a terrible shock to what was, yes, an economy utterly unsuited to the tender mercies of capitalism. But - and here's the kicker - the East German voters couldn't vote enough for Kohl in the first unification election. They delivered him a landslide and ensured his place in history as one of the greatest Chancellors in historical terms (as unfair as that seems to me). And just as they were taken in by wild promises then, some of the very same people are being taken in by the similarly seductive lies of the AfD now. Fool me once...

I'm sorry but what freedoms did women have in the West that they didn't have in the East? The chance to go to university? Free access to abortion? The ability to serve in the military?

Women lost their rights to serve in certain professions once re-unification came. As you say "freedom" in Orwellian speak means "Loss of rights".

As for the 2nd part, I've dealt with the idea why one start was more productive than the other, and it has little to do with communism/capitalism, and everything to do with investment and reparations. However, have you ever considered if Communism is so bad for growth why China has grown so prodigiously and lifted so many of it's citizens out of poverty, compared to market economies?

Some food for thought.

 

[davek]

I suppose if you can mischaracterise Sahra Wagenknecht as a progressive leftie, you can mischaracterise my posts on this subject just as you have now done.

I have a degree in economics, Dave. You don't need that to know that every single communist state was economically backward by comparison to the West in terms of its "readiness" for the "free market." That was a simple function of communism and its obliteration of innovation because "the state was responsible for that". When that system fell, those economies were on their faces. Did they have great workers? Indeed, they did. Lots of skilled masters. And women's rights were superior to those in the West - except for things like, you know, freedom.

The GDR was treated horrifically as Helmut Kohl imposed the usual capitalist shock doctrine on it. Instead of slowly reintegrating the East and converging slowly, his hawkishness ensured a terrible shock to what was, yes, an economy utterly unsuited to the tender mercies of capitalism. But - and here's the kicker - the East German voters couldn't vote enough for Kohl in the first unification election. They delivered him a landslide and ensured his place in history as one of the greatest Chancellors in historical terms (as unfair as that seems to me). And just as they were taken in by wild promises then, some of the very same people are being taken in by the similarly seductive lies of the AfD now. Fool me once...

This is all very ideological and lacking rigour.

In actuality the GDR proportinatley sunk more of its spending into research and development than the FRG and had a higher rate of success in coming up with patented inventions. The problem was that they were too bureaucratic to get it to production for the most part. 'Communism', Stalinism or Market Socialism - whichever you prefer - is not inherently 'backward'. The East German state had a first world education system and churned out scientists by the truckload.

I do really think your attempt to position East Germany and its citizens as luddites and backwoodsmen desperate to be relieved of their 'Third World' status is obscuring matters for you.

 

[davek]

It fell because you can only get away with shooting so many people who want to visit their family on the other side of the street so many times before all the good stuff starts to get a bit jaded.

And that's the problem with people like Sahra Wagenknecht. She can have all the "progressive" policies in the world (heck, I tend to think she isn't a million miles away from sanity on a number of issues), but you've got to remember one thing: she was comfortable walling in her own people and shooting any who dared escape.

There was actually constant movement of East Germans into West Germany during the 40 years of its existence.

Were high value citizens denied that right to leave? Yes. But permits could be applied for and invariably given for most other people to visit family in the west.

This 'getting shot down at the Wall' is an emotional and seductive portrayal for Cold War buffs, but it doesn't stand the sniff test with reality.

 

[Joey66]

I used to work with a few East Germans, who all grew up in the GDR.

By and large, there was a mix of some nostalgia for the old days and a feeling of being second class citizens in the unified Germany.

Right from the beginning, it was felt that the state agency created to appropriate GDR assets into a unified German economy, did so very unfairly against the East.

The birth rate in the east is less than the other parts of Germany and the population older. There is still very much a nagging sense of disparity and arrested development.

Did they pinch the sunbeds?

 

[davek]

There were moves towards wanting a different, more democratic form of socialism. They were given something wholly different to that, and honestly possibly worse than the poor version of socialism they loved under before. If they would have known that was on offer, you wouldn't have seen those protests.

Milton Friedman and his acolytes had carte blanche to put their utopia into practice, and surprise surprise it totally tanked when taken out of undergraduate textbooks and hit reality.

The move as I remember in the Soviet Bloc even before Glasnost was toward a market socialism. A hybrid economy but the state retaining control over profits.

In truth, apart from East Germany - which was a dynamic society in comparison with all other Bloc nations - the economies of the Soviet satellites was completely failing and they needed to shift from the plan (at least in some ways) toward the market to try and survive. They just didn't have the expertise and/or control to manage it / incorporate it and collapsed.

 

[Drico]

No there wasn't. It was a pact of mutual convenience, not ideological agreement.

They did sort of murders millions of the others soldiers during WW2 mate, and Hitler was not a known fan of the Soviet Union like.

The far left met the far right in a pact of mutual convenience. That's ALL that mattered and matters. Ideology is irrelevant when the outcome is precisely the same.

 

[Drico]

I'm sorry but what freedoms did women have in the West that they didn't have in the East? The chance to go to university? Free access to abortion? The ability to serve in the military?

The freedom to travel to see their parents or lovers or friends on the other side of their city.

 

[Drico]

This is all very ideological and lacking rigour.

In actuality the GDR proportinatley sunk more of its spending into research and development than the FRG and had a higher rate of success in coming up with patented inventions. The problem was that they were too bureaucratic to get it to production for the most part. 'Communism', Stalinism or Market Socialism - whichever you prefer - is not inherently 'backward'.

Any system that imprisons people in their own country is, by defintion, backward. Any system that divides a great city in two and walls in people against their will is, by definition, backward.

Everything else is choreography.