Current Affairs General US politics (ie, not POTUS related)

[Martin Alvito]

Can't we just agree that women have a human right to choose what to do with their body like in a civilised country?

I agree with you. What I'm talking about is what to do about the problem.

Arguments like this are tiresome

The reality is that democrats have won the popular vote for decades. Their policies are to try to actually do good thjngs for people, hence why they are more popular in general

Republicans, aided by our electrical college, gerrymandering, and the rise of Rush and Fox News, have successfully created an us vs them alternate reality for your commoner that are taken advantage of by super rich Republicans that only want to save money on taxes and ensure they don’t have to deal with black and brown people

Harsh. But true. As someone who comes from a family on the white trash side of the party in the 80s and 90s, this is literally how it is

We're saying the same thing about how we got here. The problem of what to do about it remains.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Look, if the usage rate were 2% rather than one-sixth of the population, that's what would happen. We criminalize everything else with those usage rates that is generally perceived the way smoking is. The reason that marijuana got decriminalized is because usage rates went way up. The reason Prohibition collapsed is that FDR, and others, recognized that enough people were circumventing the law that the consequences of that were doing more harm than good.

If you talk to the left's core voters, they generally would prefer it banned. The politicians don't stake out that position because alienating one-sixth of the population to the point that they will vote for anyone else who will reverse your policy is not a winning electoral strategy.

Insanity.

“The lefts core voters”. Like people who smoke aren’t democrats.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I agree with you. What I'm talking about is what to do about the problem.


We're saying the same thing about how we got here. The problem of what to do about it remains.

Here’s where I’m a pessimist. There is no way to “policy” our way out of this mess, because the Fox News alternate reality is too embedded by now, and red states’ legislatures are too powerful there.

So it ain’t changing for at least a generation

 

[Martin Alvito]

Insanity.

“The lefts core voters”. Like people who smoke aren’t democrats.

Some of them are. The demographics generally break the other way.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Here’s where I’m a pessimist. There is no way to “policy” our way out of this mess, because the Fox News alternate reality is too embedded by now, and red states’ legislatures are too powerful there.

So it ain’t changing for at least a generation

There's no way to 'policy' our way out of it in the short term. This is absolutely true.

Alternatives to taking a long view lead right where your opponents want them - towards excuses for authoritarianism. I don't want that any more than you do.

 

[BlueTX]

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[catcherintherye]

No, the proper response is to go to the polls and vote for people that will protect the integrity of our elections, defend our rights, and impeach -> remove those justices on human rights grounds, so that we don't have to resort to violence.

The reason we're having this conversation is because there aren't enough people who will. There's a whole host of reasons why. If you want my opinion, the single biggest problem is that a lot of people don't trust the Democrats, given a free hand, not to implement policies they like even less than the status quo. The Democrats need a big rethink on their approach to social policy. They're stuck thinking about issues in the context of gains for the various interest groups whose coalition comprises their base, which is not the same as working towards the goal of equal justice under the law.

The second-biggest problem is that the Republicans work like crazy to suppress the vote of people they know are unlikely to vote for them. That's culminating in a push by Republicans to elect secretaries of state that are dog-whistling their willingness to certify false election results, if you ask me.


The Republicans have been winning for some time, in terms of policy outputs, because they won the ideological war. They hammered together a coalition of three basic interests - big business, the religious right and the gun nuts - and worked tirelessly and relentlessly to convince people that government can't solve problems in order to dismantle it. Meanwhile, they got the religious right, many of whom are not well off and have become worse off under Republican policies, to support them by promising to implement their social agenda. They convinced people that guns make them safer, rather than making them feel more safe, and promised to let them carry those guns wherever they want. The Republicans are now delivering on those promises.

You don't solve this by being angry about what has happened. You solve it by chipping away at their coalition. That means putting something on the table that's attractive to people in the states you need to win - and make no mistake about it, you probably need to hold at least one of the presidency or the Senate continuously for the next fifteen years if you want to replace Thomas or Alito with someone less loathsome.

It's time for some soul-searching about how to put something on the table that accomplishes that objective, and some recognition that letting the Trumpites have control of the secretary of state's offices is going to preclude that. The alternative is violence, but your opponents broadly have the loyalty of the military, the police and the gun nuts. That's not likely to work out well.

Ok. So all those women who have now lost the basic right of being in control of their own body have to wait for another election, and another group of politicians to do what should have been done?

Not for me. It's more urgent than that. Time for those who have committed the above crimes to swing from some lampposts. We havent got time to wait for elections.

I hope people take the right course of action.

 

[catcherintherye]

Arguments like this are tiresome

The reality is that democrats have won the popular vote for decades. Their policies are to try to actually do good thjngs for people, hence why they are more popular in general

Republicans, aided by our electrical college, gerrymandering, and the rise of Rush and Fox News, have successfully created an us vs them alternate reality for your commoner that are taken advantage of by super rich Republicans that only want to save money on taxes and ensure they don’t have to deal with black and brown people

Harsh. But true. As someone who comes from a family on the white trash side of the party in the 80s and 90s, this is literally how it is

Yes going to the polls hasnt worked. Theyve been doing that for decades.

Women will die as a consequence of this. Any uncle tom telling people to wait for elections is a traitor, and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[TN Toffee]

Look, if the usage rate were 2% rather than one-sixth of the population, that's what would happen. We criminalize everything else with those usage rates that is generally perceived the way smoking is. The reason that marijuana got decriminalized is because usage rates went way up. The reason Prohibition collapsed is that FDR, and others, recognized that enough people were circumventing the law that the consequences of that were doing more harm than good.

If you talk to the left's core voters, they generally would prefer it banned. The politicians don't stake out that position because alienating one-sixth of the population to the point that they will vote for anyone else who will reverse your policy is not a winning electoral strategy.

I don’t know that I’ve ever personally met anyone who wants an outright ban on cigarettes. I’m generally pretty left leaning, and wouldn’t be in favor of that, if for no other reason than we would lose a significant stream of tax revenue that would have to be made up for in some other way.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Women will die as a consequence of this.

Most of the time when you read comments like this about a policy change, it's a far off, albeit often accurate, hypothetical.

In this instance, it will likely happen for the first time within weeks, if not days.

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[BlueTX]

I don’t know that I’ve ever personally met anyone who wants an outright ban on cigarettes. I’m generally pretty left leaning, and wouldn’t be in favor of that, if for no other reason than we would lose a significant stream of tax revenue that would have to be made up for in some other way.

Most left-leaning people I know understood that bans in public places and heavy taxation would lead to a declining number of cigarette smokers - and it's proven to be the case. When these policies began to be implemented in most of the country, 21% of us were regular smokers. Just under 20 years later that number is 12% and consistently declining.

 

[catcherintherye]

Most of the time when you read comments like this about a policy change, it's a far off, albeit often accurate, hypothetical.

In this instance, it will likely happen for the first time within weeks, if not days.

Of course it will.

I am not normally so dramatic. Women will die. The poorest are in most danger.

Having a "let's just wait for an election" is an abdication of responsibility.