Gareth Barry

[bluestevon]

Wouldn't utterly shock me to see Baines playing in his role against Boro - if Barry misses the game

 

[Saint Domingo]

I'm much more concerned about the two months before that game tbh...

But that's why an in-form McCarthy is so key for us. He has the ability to break up and pressurise opposition play against 'mobile' midfields, allowing Barry to drop deep and kick-start attacks.

Well McCarthy might not be around for the next few games, and even if he is Bournemouth's midfield caused us problems both halves. Palace at Goodison will be a nightmare to play against (indeed lost this fixture the last two occasions). Will we learn our lesson or will we continue to carry a lack of mobility in centre kid, cede possession to the opposition, and hope the counterattack goes ok. That is effectively what we now do against high energy teams.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Think I've missed the part of the last 18 months when we had a good defence. No problem with people having a go at Gibbo for his injuries but positional awareness? With him in the team we went on a massive unbeaten run, he's not some untested kid, he's an experienced premier league midfielder. I'd love to buy all of this Barry is a class apart stuff, positionally perfect, great passing range, defensively sound, no one else can do his job etc. etc. But then I watch us outclassed by three of the league's top sides, concede multiple goals to Sunderland Bournemouth Barnsley Watford, Reading and think maybe he's not the English Busquets that some portray him to be?

But Barry didn't even play against Barnsley and him coming on at half time vs Reading significantly improved our solidity in midfield, we didn't conceed with him on the pitch.

 

[ijjysmith]

But Barry didn't even play against Barnsley and him coming on at half time vs Reading significantly improved our solidity in midfield, we didn't conceed with him on the pitch.

Don't let facts get in the way mate.

 

[Saint Domingo]

But Barry didn't even play against Barnsley and him coming on at half time vs Reading significantly improved our solidity in midfield, we didn't conceed with him on the pitch.

Fine so I've made a mistake with a couple of games, the larger point still stands. I'm pretty certain he was ever present last season though when all and sundry were scoring against us. My overriding point is I don't accept that Barry is positionally perfect, perfect on the ball, perfect in defence, and the other claim that the likes of Gibson and Besic can't play there because they don't have this mastery of the position. It's complete rubbish as shown by Gibson marshalling our midfield under Moyes for a long unbeaten spell. Barry's lack of mobility means no matter how positionally perfect he is (which he isn't in my view) he'll always be on the verge of a foul as he is behind the game (as we saw with the free kick he gave away for Bournemouth's second, showed good 'experience' as well to stop the quick free kick and then track his midfield runner into the box stopping him scoring....oh wait....)

 

[Osamabindiesel]

Gibbo played with an experienced back line. I think Gibbo is much better on the ball than Barry, but he doesn't offer the same protection that Barry does. If you had to flip a coin between both of them with the current team we have (No Jags and two young defenders in Stones and Galloway), I would choose Barry. I would choose Gibson if JM was healthy and we had a sound back four.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Fine so I've made a mistake with a couple of games, the larger point still stands. I'm pretty certain he was ever present last season though when all and sundry were scoring against us. My overriding point is I don't accept that Barry is positionally perfect, perfect on the ball, perfect in defence, and the other claim that the likes of Gibson and Besic can't play there because they don't have this mastery of the position. It's complete rubbish as shown by Gibson marshalling our midfield under Moyes for a long unbeaten spell. Barry's lack of mobility means no matter how positionally perfect he is (which he isn't in my view) he'll always be on the verge of a foul as he is behind the game (as we saw with the free kick he gave away for Bournemouth's second, showed good 'experience' as well to stop the quick free kick and then track his midfield runner into the box stopping him scoring....oh wait....)

As far as I'm aware nobody is asking you to.

I agree that Barry's weaknesses are exposed by a high energy, pressing midfield, it is a point I've made several times in the thread. But think it is also exacerbated by him always being willing to provide an option to another player to help them get out of trouble, so don't think it always as simply a case that if he wasn't there we'd have been fine.

I too like Gibson and in fact think his general passing is a bit better than Barry's, especially long field, but don't think he is much more mobile tbh and even in a slower game think his closing down can be weaker as well. Just as Barry isn't the player he was several years ago, don't think Gibson is either although it is possible with an extended run he might regain most of it but his injury history makes that seem unlikely.

One reason that Barry was an ever-present last season despite dropping form over the winter months was that there was no one else fit - both McCarthy and Gibson were injured as was Osman even if you consider him capable of doing playing there now which I don't. Of course he shouldn't have played that much, especially as he was just back from a bad injury himself, but you give absolutely no allowances for the circumstances.

A Gibson/Besic pairing I think is a relatively balanced partnership but at this moment in time a downgrade on a a fully fit Barry/McCarthy one.

 

[Osamabindiesel]

As far as I'm aware nobody is asking you to.

I agree that Barry's weaknesses are exposed by a high energy, pressing midfield, it is a point I've made several times in the thread. But think it is also exacerbated by him always being willing to provide an option to another player to help them get out of trouble, so don't think it always as simply a case that if he wasn't there we'd have been fine.

I too like Gibson and in fact think his general passing is a bit better than Barry's, especially long field, but don't think he is much more mobile tbh and even in a slower game think his closing down can be weaker as well. Just as Barry isn't the player he was several years ago, don't think Gibson is either although it is possible with an extended run he might regain most of it but his injury history makes that seem unlikely.

One reason that Barry was an ever-present last season despite dropping form over the winter months was that there was no one else fit - both McCarthy and Gibson were injured as was Osman even if you consider him capable of doing playing there now which I don't. Of course he shouldn't have played that much, especially as he was just back from a bad injury himself, but you give absolutely no allowances for the circumstances.

A Gibson/Besic pairing I think is a relatively balanced partnership but at this moment in time a downgrade on a a fully fit Barry/McCarthy one.

People also need to take into account that Gibson hasn't really had enough game time (Largely due to injuries) to build chemistry with the current squad. The JM Barry partnership has been around for 2 seasons. I'd like to phase Barry out at some point, but it can't happen overnight.

 

[Saint Domingo]

As far as I'm aware nobody is asking you to.

I agree that Barry's weaknesses are exposed by a high energy, pressing midfield, it is a point I've made several times in the thread. But think it is also exacerbated by him always being willing to provide an option to another player to help them get out of trouble, so don't think it always as simply a case that if he wasn't there we'd have been fine.

I too like Gibson and in fact think his general passing is a bit better than Barry's, especially long field, but don't think he is much more mobile tbh and even in a slower game think his closing down can be weaker as well. Just as Barry isn't the player he was several years ago, don't think Gibson is either although it is possible with an extended run he might regain most of it but his injury history makes that seem unlikely.

One reason that Barry was an ever-present last season despite dropping form over the winter months was that there was no one else fit - both McCarthy and Gibson were injured as was Osman even if you consider him capable of doing playing there now which I don't. Of course he shouldn't have played that much, especially as he was just back from a bad injury himself, but you give absolutely no allowances for the circumstances.

A Gibson/Besic pairing I think is a relatively balanced partnership but at this moment in time a downgrade on a a fully fit Barry/McCarthy one.

This is just the Howard argument all over again. I think he's better than Robles ergo he plays. I'm not arguing why Roberto plays him, injuries lack of options, favouritism, tactical preference, all have played a part at different times in his selection, but It doesn't mean he's good enough the same way Howard might appear the only logical choice in goal but he is not good enough.

Against Bournemouth we were given the run around by Dan Gosling! I was willing to accept Barry as a good squad option this season after Roberto explicitly promised that had players been fit he would have rotated Barry last season in the league. When he bought Cleverley I thought 'great, Barry will be cover and sometimes starting in the right games or if injuries occur'. This was obviously a lie by Martinez though. Cleverley started the season on the left wing, Besic also eventually appeared there before his injury. Gibson has been fit for months now and yet cannot get a look in. Barkley has remained solely at 10. Barry has started every league game. He is not good enough. Better players than him are being rotated by other clubs. Schweinsteiger, Carrick Schneiderlin Herrera Fernando Fernandinho, the list goes on and on of top midfielders rotated by their clubs for tactical and form reasons. Barry is older slower and worse than all of the above yet is playing every single league game for us.

The pace of Bournemouth's midfield showed up what has been obvious in most games apart from the dross at Goodison. Barry is not at the required level to play every game. Bournemouth ran all over us the same way Spurs did the same way all three of the top teams did. We couldn't get the ball back in the second half.

Besic and McCarthy should be the options for the DM spot. Barkley and Cleverley for the one that pushes on. Gibson to offer a tactical option off the bench and in certain home games as a starter, the same for Barry. Barry as unconditional first choice at his age is utterly utterly ridiculous in the modern premier league. Ferguson didn't even play Scholes and Keane regularly at this age.

 

[LinekersLegs]

This is just the Howard argument all over again. I think he's better than Robles ergo he plays. I'm not arguing why Roberto plays him, injuries lack of options, favouritism, tactical preference, all have played a part at different times in his selection, but It doesn't mean he's good enough the same way Howard might appear the only logical choice in goal but he is not good enough.

Against Bournemouth we were given the run around by Dan Gosling! I was willing to accept Barry as a good squad option this season after Roberto explicitly promised that had players been fit he would have rotated Barry last season in the league. When he bought Cleverley I thought 'great, Barry will be cover and sometimes starting in the right games or if injuries occur'. This was obviously a lie by Martinez though. Cleverley started the season on the left wing, Besic also eventually appeared there before his injury. Gibson has been fit for months now and yet cannot get a look in. Barkley has remained solely at 10. Barry has started every league game. He is not good enough. Better players than him are being rotated by other clubs. Schweinsteiger, Carrick Schneiderlin Herrera Fernando Fernandinho, the list goes on and on of top midfielders rotated by their clubs for tactical and form reasons. Barry is older slower and worse than all of the above yet is playing every single league game for us.

The pace of Bournemouth's midfield showed up what has been obvious in most games apart from the dross at Goodison. Barry is not at the required level to play every game. Bournemouth ran all over us the same way Spurs did the same way all three of the top teams did. We couldn't get the ball back in the second half.

Besic and McCarthy should be the options for the DM spot. Barkley and Cleverley for the one that pushes on. Gibson to offer a tactical option off the bench and in certain home games as a starter, the same for Barry. Barry as unconditional first choice at his age is utterly utterly ridiculous in the modern premier league. Ferguson didn't even play Scholes and Keane regularly at this age.

On the first point we significantly disagree - on form I believe Barry to be one of the better DMs in the league and has shown that in a few games this season. Despite Howard improving from last year think there are several league goalkeeprs superior to him which is probably why I seem to spent a lot of my time in the "today's football" thread commenting "wish we had a goalkeeper like x"! Got no beef with Howard, been a good servant to us but think it is time for him to move on wheras don't believe that at all about Barry.

Barry has been poor at Spurs and the last game, other than that he has had an excellent season in most people's view as shown often in the post match thread comments. Gibson may have been fully physically fit all this time, although that has been hard to judge since his national team haven't played him either and those that saw him play in the U21s matches said he was badly out of shape. Perhaps his offroad excursions made Martinez a bit more reluctant to use him or perhaps he didn't want to drop an in form Barry.

Personally I like the idea of Cleverley playing the left wing role especially with Baines, although would quite like to see him and Barkley as the attacking two in a midfield three with a holding midfielder behind them (Barry/McCarthy/Besic).
Going to be interesting to see what lineups we do have in the unlikely event we manage to get everyone fit.

Essentially I completely disagree with your assessment that Barry isn't good enough to be first choice but it is clearly something that neither of us will budge on so perhaps we are best leaving it there.

 

[caught]

This is just the Howard argument all over again. I think he's better than Robles ergo he plays. I'm not arguing why Roberto plays him, injuries lack of options, favouritism, tactical preference, all have played a part at different times in his selection, but It doesn't mean he's good enough the same way Howard might appear the only logical choice in goal but he is not good enough.

Against Bournemouth we were given the run around by Dan Gosling! I was willing to accept Barry as a good squad option this season after Roberto explicitly promised that had players been fit he would have rotated Barry last season in the league. When he bought Cleverley I thought 'great, Barry will be cover and sometimes starting in the right games or if injuries occur'. This was obviously a lie by Martinez though. Cleverley started the season on the left wing, Besic also eventually appeared there before his injury. Gibson has been fit for months now and yet cannot get a look in. Barkley has remained solely at 10. Barry has started every league game. He is not good enough. Better players than him are being rotated by other clubs. Schweinsteiger, Carrick Schneiderlin Herrera Fernando Fernandinho, the list goes on and on of top midfielders rotated by their clubs for tactical and form reasons. Barry is older slower and worse than all of the above yet is playing every single league game for us.

The pace of Bournemouth's midfield showed up what has been obvious in most games apart from the dross at Goodison. Barry is not at the required level to play every game. Bournemouth ran all over us the same way Spurs did the same way all three of the top teams did. We couldn't get the ball back in the second half.

Besic and McCarthy should be the options for the DM spot. Barkley and Cleverley for the one that pushes on. Gibson to offer a tactical option off the bench and in certain home games as a starter, the same for Barry. Barry as unconditional first choice at his age is utterly utterly ridiculous in the modern premier league. Ferguson didn't even play Scholes and Keane regularly at this age.

This sentence renders everything you say and do irrelevant for a minimum of nine years. At which point you'll legally be able to hire a car and drive to Oslo, where such Kopitery is tolerated.

 

[Saint Domingo]

This sentence renders everything you say and do irrelevant for a minimum of nine years. At which point you'll legally be able to hire a car and drive to Oslo, where such Kopitery is tolerated.

He also said countless times in that season early on that he wouldn't blame the Europa for our league form. End of season he blames the exertions of the Europa league. 'Player X is 100% fit, will be touch and go for today', we don't see him for another three months. I'm sure he doesn't mean it, but there are many things Martinez says that are either not true, the opposite of what he does, or a contradiction of himself. You can of course just blindly accept his every word and call people kopites when they say something you disagree with.

 

[LinekersLegs]

He also said countless times in that season early on that he wouldn't blame the Europa for our league form. End of season he blames the exertions of the Europa league. 'Player X is 100% fit, will be touch and go for today', we don't see him for another three months. I'm sure he doesn't mean it, but there are many things Martinez says that are either not true, the opposite of what he does, or a contradiction of himself. You can of course just blindly accept his every word and call people kopites when they say something you disagree with.

But when did Martinez ever say where Cleverley was going to play? Or that Barry was just going to be cover and not first choice?

All I recall him saying was that he recognised Gareth had been overplayed last season. Could just have easily meant that at the start of the season (when Barry had international breaks to rest in unlike the other squad memebers) he'd be first choice for league games/ squad for cups but that as soon as the busy period hit there would be more rotation.

It also appears that Barry got a shin injury during the game, bad enough that he couldn't walk yesterday, which could well account for him not looking top form for Bournemouth.
http://www.theguardian.com/football...iddlesbrough-capital-one-cup?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[blueblue]

I think the team may well be.
Robles

Coleman
Funes Mori
Stones
Baines

Gibson
Barry

Lennon
Mirallas
Barkley
Lukaku or Kone.

We are the business end of the competition and I think there will be less risks taken with the team changes.
I think Baines is on the brink of coming back anyway and Gibson has been introduced in the last two games, so the management team
must feel he is getting close.

I think that Lennon deserves a chance and Deulofeu's hamstrings deserve a rest.

Besic will probably get some game time after Christmas, but I think it is too big a game for his first outing all season.

 

[mkrudden]

This is just the Howard argument all over again. I think he's better than Robles ergo he plays. I'm not arguing why Roberto plays him, injuries lack of options, favouritism, tactical preference, all have played a part at different times in his selection, but It doesn't mean he's good enough the same way Howard might appear the only logical choice in goal but he is not good enough.

Against Bournemouth we were given the run around by Dan Gosling! I was willing to accept Barry as a good squad option this season after Roberto explicitly promised that had players been fit he would have rotated Barry last season in the league. When he bought Cleverley I thought 'great, Barry will be cover and sometimes starting in the right games or if injuries occur'. This was obviously a lie by Martinez though. Cleverley started the season on the left wing, Besic also eventually appeared there before his injury. Gibson has been fit for months now and yet cannot get a look in. Barkley has remained solely at 10. Barry has started every league game. He is not good enough. Better players than him are being rotated by other clubs. Schweinsteiger, Carrick Schneiderlin Herrera Fernando Fernandinho, the list goes on and on of top midfielders rotated by their clubs for tactical and form reasons. Barry is older slower and worse than all of the above yet is playing every single league game for us.

The pace of Bournemouth's midfield showed up what has been obvious in most games apart from the dross at Goodison. Barry is not at the required level to play every game. Bournemouth ran all over us the same way Spurs did the same way all three of the top teams did. We couldn't get the ball back in the second half.

Besic and McCarthy should be the options for the DM spot. Barkley and Cleverley for the one that pushes on. Gibson to offer a tactical option off the bench and in certain home games as a starter, the same for Barry. Barry as unconditional first choice at his age is utterly utterly ridiculous in the modern premier league. Ferguson didn't even play Scholes and Keane regularly at this age.

You made a presumption on Cleverley and his position... And Martinez lied?

Right.
Ok.