Ferguson

[moyeslovechild]

See, I think there's obvious problems in America, I just don't think that Wilson murdered the lad in cold blood. It makes me uncomfortable that so many people use an incident, ignoring the complexities, to inflame and incite a community "white cop shoots black unarmed guy = reason to riot " Kind of feel there are some that wanted the case to be dismissed just so they can say "oh ho, look at that, typical racist America"

If people are rioting, there's more to that then a verdict or one incident. Not that it should be excused. But it doesn't mean the outrage over it means that the law shouldn't be followed and verdicts shouldn't be reached as they would be in less high profile cases. I think the law still makes it difficult to prosecute the cop if the kid is white. I think the cop still doesn't face charges if the kid is white. I think the cop still shoots the kid if he's white.

 

[red1]

If communities are going to ignore the outcomes of an appointed court of law

It's interesting you say that. One of my mates sent me links about this whole thing because they study law and stuff so he looks at things from certain angles. It turns out that as soon as the prosecutor's name was mentioned, there was a campaign immediately by the family of the black victim and other activists to have him removed. The prosecutor took charge of a different case back in the early 2000's where a policeman shot two black guys and after he lost the case he described the two dead black guys as "bums". Remember this was the lawyer for them, not against them. The prosecutor's overall profile is actually even worse. His family members are cops and he bragged that being a prosecutor is the "closest thing to a cop". Mike Brown's family basically had a cop as a lawyer pure and simple and he was never going to help indict a fellow cop. He threw the case and his statement before the verdict kinda proves it.

 

[johnnydawg68]

Thought it might be beneficial to post something a friend of mine, a black friend of mine, a guy I grew up with, have known since I was 11 or 12 years old, had to say on the subject. He didn't grow up poor fatherless. He is married with kids now. He isn't a stereotype. He's not a journalist or a rabble rouser or civil rights activist or politician. He's just a guy who is black in America.

This post is from Facebook last night:

"Well, I tried to hold my tongue, but I can't, not after hearing the prosecuting attorney give a press conference last night which focused more on discrediting the witnesses in a manner designed to make ALL the witnesses look like liars. Not after watching some of the talking heads on TV try to put their own ridiculous spin on the so-called "evidence" used to justify Mike Brown's death, knowing that there has always been ways that evidence has been manipulated to reach the desired conclusion. Not after reading the borderline racist, and in some cases blatant, racist comments on FB by people who I THOUGHT knew better. Not after the press conference announcing the grand jury verdict, scheduled by a person who already knew the results, was set for a time when any REASONABLE person knows there is potential for overflowing emotions. And DEFINITELY not after reading Wilson's description of the murder of Mike Brown, in which he described him as a "demon" and himself as a child. To all of this all i can say is ARE...YOU...SERIOUS??? As someone who has family and friends of all races and considers himself easy to get along with, but yet has been profiled by police on numerous occasions, has been called nigga both to my face and behind my back, who has been perceived as not being "worthy" because of my race, not because of the man I am, and who unfortunately has had to have "The Talk" with my oldest son on how to interact with police, I say to any and everyone who hasn't had to face those same circumstances and don't understand, you can NEVER understand the struggle unless you've LIVED the struggle!"

 

[BBleck]

There's no study, just anecdotal evidence. Admittedly, I've not researched every case. Some have tried, but it's difficult. Few police departments are interested in reporting their activities. Evidence shows that criminal processing for smaller crimes (specifically drug crimes) is disproportionate. I'd be surprised if shootings are any different, but I understand this should be supported by data.


Underreporting of Justifiable Homicides Committed by Police Officers in the United States, 1976–1998




How many police shootings a year? No one knows

Thanks for the links, mate. It's frustrating to not have numbers to convince me one way or the other (not your fault obviously). It makes sense that a comprehensive study isn't out there given the difficulties in getting raw data (not to mention classifying the data as reasonable/excessive force). I'm still skeptical that there's more going on than the issue of what generally constitutes reasonable/excessive force, but then again I'm a skeptic about most things.

 

[johnnydawg68]

I wasn't talking about any trial with that post, so I'm not sure what you think you're 'correcting'.

I was responding to JD's implication of murder. Of which no proof exists.

All due respect, there's plenty of evidence to suggest at least manslaughter. This should have gone to trial in two seconds. Bob McCulloch didn't want that. So he created this unheard of grand jury where evidence was dumped on them and the prosecution acted more like a defense attorney for Wilson than a prosecutor.

 

[red1]

Thought it might be beneficial to post something a friend of mine, a black friend of mine, a guy I grew up with, have known since I was 11 or 12 years old, had to say on the subject. He didn't grow up poor fatherless. He is married with kids now. He isn't a stereotype. He's not a journalist or a rabble rouser or civil rights activist or politician. He's just a guy who is black in America.

This post is from Facebook last night:

"Well, I tried to hold my tongue, but I can't, not after hearing the prosecuting attorney give a press conference last night which focused more on discrediting the witnesses in a manner designed to make ALL the witnesses look like liars.

Your friend got it spot on here. That press conference from the so-called prosecutor was an absolute disgrace, anyone watching would think he was a lawyer for the cop. The guy was also a racist, he previously called the two dead black guys that he was supposed to be representing in court "bums". I was shocked when I found all this out, I didn't know blacks had the justice system so stacked up against them, they quite literally have no where to turn. Even the lawyers they are given are racists. They have no chance.

 

[johnnydawg68]

Yes, I have a point of view that differs from even close friends of mine.

But since I'm the only person on this board who actually lives here, I have to tell you that posting nonsense like "the community should respect the rule of the court of law" is absolute tosh.

There are one set of laws and applications of those laws for me, and there is a separate application for anyone who is black. I'm sorry if that offends you. I'm sorry if you think that makes me a raving left winger.

Here's the difference. I was lucky enough to grow up in multiple places, including the place I lived from 10-23 years old a few miles away from all this, that was mixed. I grew up with white kids, black kids, asians, poor, rich, middle class. I went to school with them. I played sports with them. I went to parties with them. I was raised by two parents who never, ever uttered a racial epithet in their lives - at least not in front of me. My mother was a social worker with a heart the size of China. Since I became an adult and could choose where I live, I've chosen to live in the city. Surrounded by a diverse population. I like it that way.

The problem is most people haven't lived the life I've lived. Especially here in Missouri (I'm from across the Mississippi in Illinois. Only a few miles but a BIG difference). This is a HIGHLY segregated place. Not necessarily because anyone tells you where you can and can't live but because whites here pretty much refuse to live near blacks.

A little history lesson. Ferguson is in North St. Louis county. St. Louis county wraps around the city (where I live) like the letter C. Ferguson is at the top of the C. Most of North County is now black. 30-40 years ago it was mostly white. What happened? Middle class blacks began moving from the north side of the city (your typical inner city area) to live the American dream in the Suburbs. What happened? Whites fled as fast as they could to St. Charles county to the West (which used to be mostly farmland, but is not the very definition of urban sprawl).

So most white people in this area, grew up and went to schools where everybody looked EXACTLY like them. And blacks went to schools where everyone looks EXACTLY like them.

Then you take those same white people, put them in police uniforms and make them the majority of the Ferguson police department, even though the majority of Ferguson is black. So you have two groups of people with very little experience dealing with people of another race on a basic human level and you throw them into a situation where one side has all the power and uses it not to "serve and protect" but to "harass and fine and jail". Ferguson PD has a terrible record of targeting poor blacks and citing them for every little thing you can imagine, racking up tickets and fines they can't pay. Then they get thrown into the justice system.

What do you think happens then?

Is every cop racist? Of course not. I doubt most of them are. But there are plenty.

Is every black kid innocent? Of course not. But most of them are. They're just not treated that way. They are treated guilty until proven innocent.

Every single black kid gets "the talk" from their parents about how to act around police. Michael Brown Sr. and Mike Brown's uncle are on record as having that talk with him over and over. He had no criminal record. So I'm supposed to believe that a kid who was taught by his father and uncle how to behave when confronted by a cop, forgot everything and reached for his gun in an attempt to murder Darren Wilson? I'm supposed to believe that once shot and running away, that he turned around and started running INTO the gunfire in attempt to murder Darren Wilson? I'm supposed to believe THAT is more likely than Darren Wilson lying his ass off to save his skin?

Yeah well I don't. I wasn't born yesterday.

 

[McBain]

Bloody You tell em JD.

 

[Zatara]

Big man goes into a store, steals and assaults the staff, then assaults a smaller, weaker police officer -- all the evidence points to him then charging at the police officer who is a much smaller man.

What does the police officer do? Get battered to death or shoot the criminal (a very large man threatening his life)?

I find it ironic that there are now riots (an excuse for other criminals to loot and commit violence) based on race...something which happened in london and always seems very one sided.

Seems like "reverse racism" to me.

Cops should arrest everyone rioting and leave them with criminal records. You always see these criminals being portrayed as victims with the fresh faced baby photos published, even their witnesses and parents should be up on charges for lying to the police.

Disgusting.

 

[BBleck]

It's interesting you say that. One of my mates sent me links about this whole thing because they study law and stuff so he looks at things from certain angles. It turns out that as soon as the prosecutor's name was mentioned, there was a campaign immediately by the family of the black victim and other activists to have him removed. The prosecutor took charge of a different case back in the early 2000's where a policeman shot two black guys and after he lost the case he described the two dead black guys as "bums". Remember this was the lawyer for them, not against them. The prosecutor's overall profile is actually even worse. His family members are cops and he bragged that being a prosecutor is the "closest thing to a cop". Mike Brown's family basically had a cop as a lawyer pure and simple and he was never going to help indict a fellow cop. He threw the case and his statement before the verdict kinda proves it.

Your understanding of the prosecutor's function is a long ways off. The prosecutor does not represent the victim(s) in a criminal proceeding. Often times, the victim's families preferences and concerns will be taken into account by a prosecutor but it is also common that victim desires are not taken into account. For example, the prosecutor might be handed a domestic violence case. It is his/her responsibility to look at the case and decide whether it is strong enough to put the case in motion. Some states require a grand jury before proceeding to trial. Putting the case before a grand jury before the case moves to trial is supposed to be a means of culling cases from an overloaded court docket that don't have enough merit to be heard (the grand jury who is also given the power to investigate as well as the power to determine whether to continue with the prosecution, decides this using a standard of probable cause, which is the broadest possible standard in American jurisprudence). In domestic violence cases, it is not uncommon for a case to proceed against the victim's wishes (like where two brothers fought, the police were called and arrested one brother, and later the other brother doesn't want to prosecute). The same goes for all criminal cases. The prosecutor goes forward on cases he thinks there is sufficient merit (and on ones where there is enough public pressure since the prosecutor belongs to the district attorney's office and the district attorney is usually a publicly elected position).

After a criminal case is handled there are often civil suits filed (like in the OJ Simpson case) and it is only then that an attorney is retained by and for the victim/victim's estate/victim's family. I would bet on there being multiple civil suits filed in the near future in the Brown case. However, it is exceptionally rare that civil suits are successful for wrongful death claims when the criminal portion of a case can't even make it past the grand jury. This is because civil suits have evidentiary standards that are somewhere in between the extremely permissive standards for a grand jury and the very demanding standards for criminal offenses. Failing to meet the most permissive standard usually means a case lacks evidence in a very big way. Of course, there are a lot more ways an attorney can go after a defendant in a civil case and each claim will have it's own elements that must be proven and these can be quite a lot different than the elements needed for criminal charges.

This isn't a case of racial discrimination. It's a case of whether police force was justified. The broader issue is why there are so many issues with police using questionable force. It was interesting that nobody commented on the video I posted of a homeless guy getting gunned down by police, which is stronger anecdotal evidence than any of the second or third hand written accounts people have posted in this thread.







Only one of these recent instances of a NM police officer (rightly or wrongly) using his weapon in the line of duty caused a stink about racism in the news. Is that last video an example of racism? Or is there maybe a less insidious, more fundamental, but still serious common question of police being too quick to fire their gun regardless of what color the person's skin is on the other side?

 

[DualityNSNO]

He's not homeless mate. A guy in the video comments, I believe, explains it - he's insane and actually basically wanted.

They are, for me, too quick to fire, but this definitely has a massive tone of racism in it, as Jdawg and others have said.

Also re: "a thief" - no actual evidence of that, in fact evidence of the exact opposite.

 

[BBleck]

He's not homeless mate. A guy in the video comments, I believe, explains it - he's insane and actually basically wanted.

They are, for me, too quick to fire, but this definitely has a massive tone of racism in it, as Jdawg and others have said.

Also re: "a thief" - no actual evidence of that, in fact evidence of the exact opposite.

First guy was homeless and his infraction was camping in the foothills where camping isn't allowed. He was definitely not right in the head, and had a lengthy history of police run ins. From the video it's hard to tell if he pulls out the knives before or after the flash goes off, maybe as you say the guy had a death wish. On the video he's saying he's going to walk away but who knows what he had planned. Why the police didn't try to knock him down with the beanbag rounds before using real rounds is something I'll never understand. Makes my stomach turn to see the guy on the ground after he got shot and then pelted in the ass with 3 non-lethal beanbag rounds.

 

[DualityNSNO]

First guy was homeless and his infraction was camping in the foothills where camping isn't allowed. He was definitely not right in the head, and had a lengthy history of police run ins. From the video it's hard to tell if he pulls out the knives before or after the flash goes off, maybe as you say the guy had a death wish. On the video he's saying he's going to walk away but who knows what he had planned. Why the police didn't try to knock him down with the beanbag rounds before using real rounds is something I'll never understand. Makes my stomach turn to see the guy on the ground after he got shot and then pelted in the ass with 3 non-lethal beanbag rounds.

Yeah, that was literally kicking him while he's down.
Someone in the comments (again, I know it's not very reliable) said that you can hear the beanbag round RIGHT after the flashbang and before they opened fire...

The whole beanbag rounds thing in the situation felt to me like it was done just so that it's done according to protocol and it made it look like they went there with the idea of him not coming back safely, if that makes sense...

 

[BBleck]

Yeah, that was literally kicking him while he's down.
Someone in the comments (again, I know it's not very reliable) said that you can hear the beanbag round RIGHT after the flashbang and before they opened fire...

The whole beanbag rounds thing in the situation felt to me like it was done just so that it's done according to protocol and it made it look like they went there with the idea of him not coming back safely, if that makes sense...

The beanbag round right after the flashbang might be true...how sad to use non-lethal and lethal forces concurrently. Pretty sure they could have beanbagged him into submission no problem. They definitely could have tried. I think the two officers who shot that guy were just recently allowed to retire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Boyd_shooting A little more info there...but wikipedia...so possibly no more reliable than youtube comments.

 

[Tramps_mate]

Big man goes into a store, steals and assaults the staff, then assaults a smaller, weaker police officer -- all the evidence points to him then charging at the police officer who is a much smaller man.

What does the police officer do? Get battered to death or shoot the criminal (a very large man threatening his life)?

I find it ironic that there are now riots (an excuse for other criminals to loot and commit violence) based on race...something which happened in london and always seems very one sided.

Seems like "reverse racism" to me.

Cops should arrest everyone rioting and leave them with criminal records. You always see these criminals being portrayed as victims with the fresh faced baby photos published, even their witnesses and parents should be up on charges for lying to the police.

Disgusting.

The cop is 6 foot 4 by the way...