Everton must wise up to cynical opposition tactics, say Martinez

[joseph]

I think it's terrible the way the media promote cheating. I was watching goals on sunday the other day and they were going out the way to prove someone had been touched before they went down. The argument is not that the player cheated anymore, more the fact yes he was touched and so was somehow OK to throw himself to the floor. It was pretty much the same as when all the pundits justified Suarez cheating against Arsenal. Not sure if this has anything to with this thread, just that football is going badly wrong and the media are as much to blame.

I think I know what you mean, and I sympathise with you. I'm not sure if it was Suarez against AV when he got that penalty-people were saying immediately that it was a dive...then afterwards, it was as if the media re-grouped and decided that, after all, it was a penalty. Loads of incidents like this....the media first saying that it wasn't a foul leading up to the free-kick that lead to the goal, then all of a sudden, "OH, but he he shouldn't have left his foot there!" It's part of a much larger issue but when everyone is doing it and getting away with it, then what choice do you have?! I remember someone saying earlier in this thread (or possibly in another thread), "Do you want to win friends or do you want to win trophies?" As I said before, surely there must be some middle ground.

 

[deipnosophist]

Cheating (or more politely phrased 'gamesmanship') is the blight of football these days. I do not have a solution to the problem but in attempting to solve it, I think a fundamental question that needs to be asked is : Is modern-day football a contact sport or isn't it?

 

[joseph]

Cheating (or more politely phrased 'gamesmanship') is the blight of football these days. I do not have a solution to the problem but in attempting to solve it, I think a fundamental question that needs to be asked is : Is modern-day football a contact sport or isn't it?

It is disgusting to see (eg the Ramirez "penalty" against WBA) but I can't see there being any solution. I think it's gone too far. Can you see a way back? Didn't they say that they were going to crack down on holding and wrestling in the box at corners? How many times have officials had the b*lls to blow up for a penalty? Once or twice in how many years?
What I'm trying to say is that people need to be made an example of but the powers that be don't have the guts or the will to do it on a near enough regular basis. They should have hung Ramirez out to dry, and Mourinho as well for condoning it. That's the type of thing that needs to be done on a regular basis if we want to have a fair and honest game...but it will never happen and that brings us back to the point, "If everyone is doing it and it is being condoned, then shouldn't we also be doing it?"

 

[Khalekan]

Indeed, at one point I started to enjoy rugby ( especially the Tri-nations, with Argentina added to it now) more than football, which I never thought would happen. None of that rolling around when someone breathed on you. Skill, flair, power, ruthlessness, crunching tackles without any drama.....and handshakes all round after the game

Yes.....instead two giants will lift a fellow, turn him upside down and risk breaking his neck with a harmless bit of "spearing".

I daresay the victim would be happy to shake hands and have a beer afterwards....as soon as the neck brace is in place....

 

[deipnosophist]

Yes.....instead two giants will lift a fellow, turn him upside down and risk breaking his neck with a harmless bit of "spearing".

I daresay the victim would be happy to shake hands and have a beer afterwards....as soon as the neck brace is in place....

The weather where I am is not so good either.

 

[Seamus Colemole]

Cheating (or more politely phrased 'gamesmanship') is the blight of football these days. I do not have a solution to the problem but in attempting to solve it, I think a fundamental question that needs to be asked is : Is modern-day football a contact sport or isn't it?

It's not, and never has been a contact sport.

It's a semi contact sport, in theory the game can be played with the minimum of unavoidable contact. Of course it accepted throughout the game that some contact is neccasary when attempting to win the ball.

It's arguning semantics of course but by rights , with the way the game is played these days there should actually be a hell of a lot more fouls given then actually are.

"
A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
• jumps at an opponent
• charges an opponent
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
• pushes an opponent
• tackles an opponent

 

[Dexter]

New Everton rugs, you can walk all over them

Need to shake this Dignity complex off it gets us nowhere, constantly bangin on about not cheating and all that garbadge and then Baines coz he knows it's the right thing to do, by our way of thinking, puts it out and then next minute it's, he's this he's that, it's the fans fault for wanting to be the way we are, honest and crap, i'm sorry but this is why we have not won anything, got to play them at their own game, if you can't beat them join them.

I hope Bobby's thinking what i'm thinking and that is to use gamesmanship coz we're not going to compete even if we do end up with loadsa dough, i reckon he'll slowly work us out of this mindset of being ultra nice over the next few years

 

[joseph]

Yes.....instead two giants will lift a fellow, turn him upside down and risk breaking his neck with a harmless bit of "spearing".

I daresay the victim would be happy to shake hands and have a beer afterwards....as soon as the neck brace is in place....

This "spearing" that you are talking about is a red card offence in rugby so I don't really see your point. Players know not to do it unless they want to get sent off. It's not equivalent to the rolling around when hardly touched and constant haranguing of the referee which is so prevalent in football.

 

[Khalekan]

This "spearing" that you are talking about is a red card offence in rugby so I don't really see your point. Players know not to do it unless they want to get sent off. It's not equivalent to the rolling around when hardly touched and constant haranguing of the referee which is so prevalent in football.

My "point" is that Rugby is continually held up as being in some way morally superior to soccer when in actual fact it is rife with cheating and downright thuggery.

Bloodgate springs to mind.

And at the heel of the hunt, a soccer player "rolling around when hardly touched" is a pretty minor transgression compared to two thugs lifting a fellow and running the risk of breaking his neck, as I am sure you will agree.

 

[efcfanwirral]

It is disgusting to see (eg the Ramirez "penalty" against WBA) but I can't see there being any solution. I think it's gone too far. Can you see a way back? Didn't they say that they were going to crack down on holding and wrestling in the box at corners? How many times have officials had the b*lls to blow up for a penalty? Once or twice in how many years?
What I'm trying to say is that people need to be made an example of but the powers that be don't have the guts or the will to do it on a near enough regular basis. They should have hung Ramirez out to dry, and Mourinho as well for condoning it. That's the type of thing that needs to be done on a regular basis if we want to have a fair and honest game...but it will never happen and that brings us back to the point, "If everyone is doing it and it is being condoned, then shouldn't we also be doing it?"

Wait til a team like us ( neither glamorous nor do the media want us to win anything) decides to take the 'can't beat them join them' approach. Then we'll see an example being made for sure!

 

[Chang Elephant]

Wait til a team like us ( neither glamorous nor do the media want us to win anything) decides to take the 'can't beat them join them' approach. Then we'll see an example being made for sure!

I'm not sure, look at Liverpool, a well deserved poor reputation after all those Italian dead at Heysel, and still referees allow them to cheat non stop for the full 90 minutes ?

 

[efcfanwirral]

I'm not sure, look at Liverpool, a well deserved poor reputation after all those Italian dead at Heysel, and still referees allow them to cheat non stop for the full 90 minutes ?

Good for business (for both FA and media) for them to be in Europe/winning things unfortunately. And they clearly need the help of the refs after their poor last few years!

Notice that even United don't get away with it this year - media storm about dives. Then as soon as baines does it it's on sky sports news as one of the 'highlights' of a game

 

[Dexter]

It is absurd how liverpool hardly get questioned over their morals but when anyone does it to them it gets scrutinised over and over but i think that's because no one can put up with the endless crying and moaning that ensues from them, it's obviously not a nice thing to do this gamesmanship but the referees buy it and will always be fooled by it and teams will always use it, so its time we used it too, its never going to go away, i don't like to see it but i hate being on the losing end of it even more

 

[joseph]

My "point" is that Rugby is continually held up as being in some way morally superior to soccer when in actual fact it is rife with cheating and downright thuggery.

Bloodgate springs to mind.

And at the heel of the hunt, a soccer player "rolling around when hardly touched" is a pretty minor transgression compared to two thugs lifting a fellow and running the risk of breaking his neck, as I am sure you will agree.

Well, I don't watch rugby half as much as football so maybe you know more than me as far as the cheating and stuff is concerned. It probably happens in all professional sports since the aim is to win at all costs. However, in all the rugby matches I've watched over the years, I've never seen a player feign injury. Also, when a players argues or back chats the referee, the free kick gets moved forward 10 yards. I'd like to see more of that in football.
I do agree with you about neck breaking challenges but at the same time I can't say that I've seen too much of it, which is a good thing.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

Gamesmanship is for winners...always has been. England with the 'holier than thou' are serial losers.

The Arsenal "invincibles" (nice dive Pires), the Mourinho "unbeaten" home run (nice dive Ramires). No such thing as an honest successful team. It extends to management where Fergie was the biggest game player there's ever been.

And why is Ruggers being mentioned? Middle class toffs running around with an egg, dead atmosphere, no rivalries, no one cares. Football matters, Ruggers doesn't.