Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

I see the Eu are tying themselves in knots over the circular wooden packaging of Camembert cheese. What is it with these Eu bureaucrats insisting on putting their fingers into everything in life……

Well I never

Cognitive ability mattered in the UK’s vote for Brexit, research shows

Susceptibility to misinformation and disinformation likely to have played a part in the Leave vote.

www.bath.ac.uk

I see no correlation here.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

With news of the fascist successses in the Netherlands, can anyone shed light on why far right politics seems to be sweeeping Europe? Not an E C point but seems daft to open a new thread.

My old politics lecturer reckoned that there's a strong link to populism and harsh economic conditions, particularly the idea of relative deprivation. I.e. if standards one expects or are used to dip folk get a bit antsy. Often turned outward on, frequently imaginary, 'others' taking what's theirs.

Just one line of thought, like. No expert on this.

 

[Blue Heart]

My old politics lecturer reckoned that there's a strong link to populism and harsh economic conditions, particularly the idea of relative deprivation. I.e. if standards one expects or are used to dip folk get a bit antsy. Often turned outward on, frequently imaginary, 'others' taking what's theirs.

Just one line of thought, like. No expert on this.

Yeah. It's interesting that it doesn't hold sway in the U K or Ireland*. Imagine Tommy Robinson polling in the millions! Very interesting to see what happens in Germany come their elections next year. If AfD poll high, things will begin to look very dark indeed.

*Blue shirts apart.

 

[Xizor]

Yeah. It's interesting that it doesn't hold sway in the U K or Ireland*. Imagine Tommy Robinson polling in the millions! Very interesting to see what happens in Germany come their elections next year. If AfD poll high, things will begin to look very dark indeed.

*Blue shirts apart.

We're no different, the tactics have just had to vary to account for our FPTP politics. The most Wilders-like equivalent would be Farage, but unlike these EU countries with their PR systems etc, he's had no route to power himself. So instead he's had to worm his way into influencing Tory policy in that direction from the safe, responsibility-free tent of UKIP et al.

He's made some remarks recently about rejoining the Tories if they swing behind Braverman. First step ahead of standing as an MP then usurping her after an election loss? Maybe. Time isn't really on his side to make a bid for power across 2 UK election cycles.

 

[peteblue]

I see no correlation here.

Explains why Wales voted to leave though…….

 

[Blue Heart]

We're no different, the tactics have just had to vary to account for our FPTP politics. The most Wilders-like equivalent would be Farage, but unlike these EU countries with their PR systems etc, he's had no route to power himself. So instead he's had to worm his way into influencing Tory policy in that direction from the safe, responsibility-free tent of UKIP et al.

He's made some remarks recently about rejoining the Tories if they swing behind Braverman. First step ahead of standing as an MP then usurping her after an election loss? Maybe. Time isn't really on his side to make a bid for power across 2 UK election cycles.

There's sufficient truth in what you say to attract me to it but it doesn't really hold wwater when looking at policies. A cursory glance at the range of causes Farage espouses doesn't begin to move the dial when it comes to the likes of Meloni, Le Pen etc.

I'm not, by the way, suggesting British & Irish exceptionalism. Yet. Waiting to see if anyone can come up with something which holds water no matter which way it's stretched.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

We're no different, the tactics have just had to vary to account for our FPTP politics. The most Wilders-like equivalent would be Farage, but unlike these EU countries with their PR systems etc, he's had no route to power himself. So instead he's had to worm his way into influencing Tory policy in that direction from the safe, responsibility-free tent of UKIP et al.

He's made some remarks recently about rejoining the Tories if they swing behind Braverman. First step ahead of standing as an MP then usurping her after an election loss? Maybe. Time isn't really on his side to make a bid for power across 2 UK election cycles.

There's been small pockets of support in recent years for the BNP and UKIP. The latter mostly on the EU issue.

But they never really get to power, usually just at a regional level. If they do they tend to mess it up.

 

[Martin Alvito]

My old politics lecturer reckoned that there's a strong link to populism and harsh economic conditions, particularly the idea of relative deprivation. I.e. if standards one expects or are used to dip folk get a bit antsy. Often turned outward on, frequently imaginary, 'others' taking what's theirs.

Just one line of thought, like. No expert on this.

I have always thought that psychological explanations for the result reveal the baked-in normative Enlightenment-era belief that all people would sign on to whatever has currency in Western culture, if only they were not uneducated tools. That approach is unhelpful and self-defeating.

If you're seeing people vote for fascism, what they want is change. Reality is that center-left policies aren't producing results for a lot of people in the era of globalization. We can't rewind the clock, and a lot of voters who have been hurt financially can't see that. I just think that treating them as either irrational or 'victims of human cognitive limitations' makes matters worse, rather than better. IMO it reveals a lack of empathy.

If we're seeing a 25% share of parliamentary seats go to a far right party in a PR system, that should be a strong signal that we need to have a conversation. That conversation needs to start from the perspective that whatever concerns motivated these people to vote for extremism are legitimate. We need to accept their rage, rather than belittle it, and discuss how we make their lives better collectively.

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

I have always thought that psychological explanations for the result reveal the baked-in normative Enlightenment-era belief that all people would sign on to whatever has currency in Western culture, if only they were not uneducated tools. That approach is unhelpful and self-defeating.

If you're seeing people vote for fascism, what they want is change. Reality is that center-left policies aren't producing results for a lot of people in the era of globalization. We can't rewind the clock, and a lot of voters who have been hurt financially can't see that. I just think that treating them as either irrational or 'victims of human cognitive limitations' makes matters worse, rather than better. IMO it reveals a lack of empathy.

If we're seeing a 25% share of parliamentary seats go to a far right party in a PR system, that should be a strong signal that we need to have a conversation. That conversation needs to start from the perspective that whatever concerns motivated these people to vote for extremism are legitimate. We need to accept their rage, rather than belittle it, and discuss how we make their lives better collectively.

Yes, a simple example would be many who voted Trump in the so called 'Rust Belt'. When all industry has gone and you're dirt poor with no prospects, I can see why folk would roll the dice.

I think similar happened here with the Red Wall Labour seats. The electorate there just saw Corbyn as for students and the unionised public sector. Another bullcrapper made wonderful promises and there's that dice roll again...

 

[Rita_Poon]

With news of the fascist successses in the Netherlands, can anyone shed light on why far right politics seems to be sweeeping Europe? Not an E C point but seems daft to open a new thread.

mass economic downturn, everyone (not vested interests tory) is poorer, and empty bellies make very susceptible ears to easy answers and a boogieman to blame. classic human nature, 'I'm suffering so I want someone else to pay for it by suffering more'. That the news is an endless cycle of non stop conflict from nearly every corner of the world isn't helping matters either. The politics of hate and fear.

 

[Blue Heart]

mass economic downturn, everyone (not vested interests tory) is poorer, and empty bellies make very susceptible ears to easy answers and a boogieman to blame. classic human nature, 'I'm suffering so I want someone else to pay for it by suffering more'. That the news is an endless cycle of non stop conflict from nearly every corner of the world isn't helping matters either. The politics of hate and fear.

Yep, I get it. The day by day suffering of some people I see around me tells me about the current regime's indiffiference to poverty, squalor and ignorance and I'm convinced I'd see much the same around the continent.

Yet the response here and in R o I is very different. If it were purely down to voting systems (multi party votes) Ireland would be a prime candidate for hard right wingers, given the system was designed by aliens with a penchant for Advanced Maths.

 

[Martin Alvito]

mass economic downturn, everyone (not vested interests tory) is poorer, and empty bellies make very susceptible ears to easy answers and a boogieman to blame. classic human nature, 'I'm suffering so I want someone else to pay for it by suffering more'. That the news is an endless cycle of non stop conflict from nearly every corner of the world isn't helping matters either. The politics of hate and fear.

I must confess that you turning into the love child of William Faulkner and E.E Cummings this week is weird. I am inclined to blame having to visit relatives and the alcohol they use to lubricate social interactions.

Blink once for "I'm inebriated and it's fiiiiine," and twice for "it's not fine."

 

[JimmyJeffers]

If you're seeing people vote for fascism, what they want is change. Reality is that center-left policies aren't producing results for a lot of people in the era of globalization.

It depends how people see or feel changes. It’s a lot easier to quickly make things like public services and healthcare worse than it is to make them better. As we have seen in the uk over the last 13 odd years.
Also think people are more than willing to go down the fascist and racist route. The politicians with their racist and xenophobic rhetoric are more often than not, pushing against an open door.

 

[Rita_Poon]

I must confess that you turning into the love child of William Faulkner and E.E Cummings this week is weird. I am inclined to blame having to visit relatives and the alcohol they use to lubricate social interactions.

Blink once for "I'm inebriated and it's fiiiiine," and twice for "it's not fine."

Many thanks for the very kindly associations, two writers of incredible note. Loquaciousness descends upon us all once or twice in a lifetime.
Back on point, I very much hope Europe doesn't need to relearn the lesson of the late 1920's and then the nightmare of the 30's. The battle for the soul of humanity would be done so with weaponry far exceeding the industrial killing methods of that era. But that might be me succumbing to that fear I mentioned previous.

 

[Aberblue]

Explains why England voted to leave though…….

Amended