Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Immigration is a problem because we have lost the democratic power over our borders.
The issues on Human Rights are a problem because we have lost the democratic power over our laws/

The root problem is democracy and everything stems from that.

The reason why immigration is probably elevated above the rest is because immigration is the means to essentially take away the ability that the people would ever be able to vote out again. Look at Brexit. The only places that voted to stay where those with high levels of immigration. If Cameron had waited 5 years the demographics would have changed to mean it never would have happened and the British people would have lost control of their democracy for ever.

It's not about xenophobia or racism. It's about the fundamental change a high level of immigration makes to our democratic system which is why Labour love it.

Freedom of movement is a 2 way street. Losing it means we also lose our freedom to live and work across the EU.

This freedom was something that a large percentage of the young voters didn't want to lose

The focus of the debate around freedom of movement was on fear, xenophobia and sensationalism. The fact that our economy has benefitted net from it was largely ignored.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Given Sterling has fallen close to 20% since June 23rd I am reminded of Margaret Thatcher's comments to Brian Walden January 1983:

"It is thoroughly irresponsible to try to secure a major devaluation of your currency. Totally irresponsible. It means that we have to pay more for all raw materials and all pre-fabricated things coming in. It would not be to Britain’s advantage. It would be to Britain’s disadvantage. The right thing is to try to run your economy in such a way that your currency is strong. That is the way to have continuing good performance"

Quoting Maggie. Strange times indeed mate

 

[peteblue]

The common market includes legislation though. It isn't the case that our negotiations will be purely on things such as tariffs. There are a whole load of non-tariff barriers to trade that the single market erodes by ensuring that companies operate to common standards.

Lets say we do a hard brexit, do we really think that a British company are going to behave one way in the British market, and then another again when it trades with the EU? You would imagine it far more sensible to behave the same way in both, and as the EU offer a bigger market they will probably go with what the EU says, even if not mandated to do so.

As it is, May has pretty much said that as things stand, all EU law will transfer into British law, from where it might be chipped away at (or might not). The notion that when brexit occurs we will suddenly repeal all sorts of laws is rather misleading I fear.

I don't think we will repeal that many laws. But it will take away the excuses from our Government by using the EU as a cop out. Just like the SNP do with Westminster. The buck will stop with the people we vote for.

 

[Pienaar's gloves]

 

[peteblue]

Given Sterling has fallen close to 20% since June 23rd I am reminded of Margaret Thatcher's comments to Brian Walden January 1983:

"It is thoroughly irresponsible to try to secure a major devaluation of your currency. Totally irresponsible. It means that we have to pay more for all raw materials and all pre-fabricated things coming in. It would not be to Britain’s advantage. It would be to Britain’s disadvantage. The right thing is to try to run your economy in such a way that your currency is strong. That is the way to have continuing good performance"

So, are you saying that the blessed Maggie was right..........

 

[The Esk]

So, are you saying that the blessed Maggie was right..........

I'm just amused how at different times diametrically opposed outcomes can be viewed as positives by people sharing similar political beliefs.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don't think we will repeal that many laws. But it will take away the excuses from our Government by using the EU as a cop out. Just like the SNP do with Westminster. The buck will stop with the people we vote for.

Even that's a bit of a cop out though really, as we do (did) have a say in what happened at the EU via the MEPs that were democratically elected. I'll hold my hand up here and admit I never voted in a European election, but the turnout for them was generally awful. People were given just as much input as they were with their Westminster MP though.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I'm afraid I disagree. Immigration is largely a problem because the way local authorities receive money is very centralized and based largely on census data. That means both that local funding is likely to be out of data at any one time, and is very poor at responding to changes in population. If the population of a town increased by 10% through internal migration, the problems would be just the same as they are if it increased by 10% as a result of immigration from abroad.

There are also well spoken issues around our planning systems, and particularly the greenbelt, that have been restricting our ability to build new homes for decades now. Once again, this is not a problem that is limited to (or even caused by) immigration so much as NIMBY'ism.

We, or our political leaders at any rate, often laud our flexible labour force, but a big part of that flexibility is the ability to move from places with few jobs to places with a lot of jobs. It's an utter sham that the debate has been sidetracked by those with thinly veiled objections to those who are different rather than addressing what are much easier, and much more beneficial issues close to home.

That makes no difference to the changes in culture brought about by immigration and wage deflation.

It would help to make people less angry towards individual immigrants that they perceive to be jumping the queue so I'm not against it but it's not the main problem.

 

[Old Blue 2]

The common market includes legislation though. It isn't the case that our negotiations will be purely on things such as tariffs. There are a whole load of non-tariff barriers to trade that the single market erodes by ensuring that companies operate to common standards.

Lets say we do a hard brexit, do we really think that a British company are going to behave one way in the British market, and then another again when it trades with the EU? You would imagine it far more sensible to behave the same way in both, and as the EU offer a bigger market they will probably go with what the EU says, even if not mandated to do so.

As it is, May has pretty much said that as things stand, all EU law will transfer into British law, from where it might be chipped away at (or might not). The notion that when brexit occurs we will suddenly repeal all sorts of laws is rather misleading I fear.

Legislation with regard to trading, yeah Bruce, I agree. BUT, and it's a big but, not what it has evolved into in the present day.

As far as how we ultimately unstich those laws that are now embedded into our ligislative process, only time will tell. We do have the mechanism to repeal that which is considered outdated, outmoded, or simply plain wrong...

 

[MartyMcFly]

The common market includes legislation though. It isn't the case that our negotiations will be purely on things such as tariffs. There are a whole load of non-tariff barriers to trade that the single market erodes by ensuring that companies operate to common standards.

Lets say we do a hard brexit, do we really think that a British company are going to behave one way in the British market, and then another again when it trades with the EU? You would imagine it far more sensible to behave the same way in both, and as the EU offer a bigger market they will probably go with what the EU says, even if not mandated to do so.

As it is, May has pretty much said that as things stand, all EU law will transfer into British law, from where it might be chipped away at (or might not). The notion that when brexit occurs we will suddenly repeal all sorts of laws is rather misleading I fear.

They have to do that when trading outside the EU already. I don't see the issue. What it means is that the companies that trade outside the EU will no longer be subject to EU regulation.

 

[peteblue]

I'm just amused how at different times diametrically opposed outcomes can be viewed as positives by people sharing similar political beliefs.

The early 80's was also completely different for our economy though Esk, we had high inflation coupled with a strong £ creating high unemployment. We have a different economy now, v.low inflation, high levels of employment and economic growth. It's very hard to compare really........

 

[MartyMcFly]

I hope you're right Pete.

My fear is that she's painted herself into a corner before it even starts!

Personally I'd have liked to have seen her kick the invoking of article 50 into the long grass. Choosing to wait and see the outcome of the French and German elections next year before jumping in. As I think it's highly likely that immigration will feature heavily in both. Caps on total net migration might have been possible in the medium term.

Choosing to go in Q1 means that there's no way the EU can be seen to buckle on freedom of movement before those elections imo.

Hopefully their hardline stance will create issues for them among their local electorate and they will lose.

I think the ones who will replace them will be less difficult.

 

[peteblue]

Even that's a bit of a cop out though really, as we do (did) have a say in what happened at the EU via the MEPs that were democratically elected. I'll hold my hand up here and admit I never voted in a European election, but the turnout for them was generally awful. People were given just as much input as they were with their Westminster MP though.

But even if we all turned out and voted in our MEP's, they are easily outvoted within the EU and regularly are. Have you seen that Guy Verhofstadt character. All he wants to do is build a United States of Europe. We really are well out of it......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That makes no difference to the changes in culture brought about by immigration and wage deflation.

I haven't seen any evidence of immigration causing wage deflation, and I live in Elephant & Castle, which has a huge Afro Caribbean and Latino community, all of which add to the flavour of the place.

I mean do people complain that curry houses and kebab shops have replaced chippies? There's a whole lot to love in the world

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But even if we all turned out and voted in our MEP's, they are easily outvoted within the EU and regularly are. Have you seen that Guy Verhofstadt character. All he wants to do is build a United States of Europe. We really are well out of it......

I was under the impression that it was relatively easy to veto things in the European parliament. That may make things sclerotic, but it also makes it harder to pressgang things through.

Even then though, how many people in each of our elections end up voting for other parties than those who secure government? In 2015, 73.1% of the votes were cast for non-Conservative candidates, and yet they have a sufficient majority to push most things through if they wish. We can't really get on a representative high horse here