Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Again, excellent news. That’s an additional 1 million cars a year to be assembled in the U.K., bringing employment and additional tax revenue to the U.K. giving a complete range of cars from the smallest Nissan up to a Rolls Royce.....where exactly is the downside to this.....
Surprised I have to say this to a "captain of industry", but nonetheless.


Were you unfamiliar with the benefits of international trade before you decided to back something that you've repeatedly said would expand international trade?
 
I mean this goes back to Adam Smith's time. It's not exactly new.

Consider two hypothetical countries, Atlantica and Krasnovia, with equivalent populations and resource endowments, with each producing two products: guns and bacon. Each year, Atlantica can produce either 12 guns or six slabs of bacon, while Krasnovia can produce either six guns or 12 slabs of bacon.


Each country needs a minimum of four guns and four slabs of bacon to survive. In a state of autarky, producing solely on their own for their own needs, Atlantica can spend one-third of the year making guns and two-thirds of the year making bacon, for a total of four guns and four slabs of bacon.


Krasnovia can spend one-third of the year making bacon and two-thirds making guns to produce the same: four guns and four slabs of bacon. This leaves each country at the brink of survival, with barely enough guns and bacon to go around. However, note that Atlantica has an absolute advantage in producing guns and Krasnovia has an absolute advantage in producing bacon.


Absolute advantage also explains why it makes sense for individuals, businesses, and countries to trade. Since each has advantages in producing certain goods and services, both entities can benefit from trade.


If each country were to specialize in their absolute advantage, Atlantica could make 12 guns and no bacon in a year, while Krasnovia makes no guns and 12 slabs of bacon. By specializing, the two countries divide the tasks of their labor between them.


If they then trade six guns for six slabs of bacon, each country would then have six of each. Both countries would now be better off than before, because each would have six guns and six slabs of bacon, as opposed to four of each good which they could produce on their own.


This mutual gain from trade forms the basis of Adam Smith’s argument that specialization, the division of labor, and subsequent trade leads to an overall increase of wealth from which all can benefit. This, Smith believed, was the root cause of the eponymous "Wealth of Nations."
 
I see the French fishermen are suggesting blockading Calais......well no one saw that coming.......

They are turning on the Dutch Super Fishing Boats, suggesting a bit of bother in French waters might just happen...again, no one saw that coming......
Where did you get the info? I'm in France and we haven't picked this up.
Much crossness about RN gunboats of course. "how very dare they? Haven't they forgotten about exocets?" the popular press are saying.
The Bretagne fishermen frighten the government more than do those of the Nord.
 
Surprised I have to say this to a "captain of industry", but nonetheless.


Were you unfamiliar with the benefits of international trade before you decided to back something that you've repeatedly said would expand international trade?

Ignoring your first comment, of course I understand the benefits of international trade. However there are also benefits in a country buying its own produce, while still exporting. And no I’m not advocating insularity.....
 
Where did you get the info? I'm in France and we haven't picked this up.
Much crossness about RN gunboats of course. "how very dare they? Haven't they forgotten about exocets?" the popular press are saying.
The Bretagne fishermen frighten the government more than do those of the Nord.

Probably the Daily Mail making stories up to try and say " Thats why we need gun ships in the water to protect Brexit "
 
Probably the Daily Mail making stories up to try and say " Thats why we need gun ships in the water to protect Brexit "

Funny enough, during the ‘cod wars’ the Navy did use the issue as a reason to defend Navy cuts...

*seeks out old episodes of Hornblower.......
 
Where did you get the info? I'm in France and we haven't picked this up.
Much crossness about RN gunboats of course. "how very dare they? Haven't they forgotten about exocets?" the popular press are saying.
The Bretagne fishermen frighten the government more than do those of the Nord.

It was just throwaway comments in a couple of the rags....
 
What evidence would that be then......

Johnson and the Vote Leave campaign he led promised an immediate, easy deal that would be *better* than the one we had as members of the EU.
On every single measure it will be, after four years of arguing, demonstrably worse.

They promised an end to red tape and bureaucracy, yet the Government are recruiting an army of 50,000 customs agents bigger than the entire EU workforce (The EU Commission, the European Parliament and the European Council *combined* employ just 43,000 people), and crippling administrative delays to import and export trade.

They promised a Brexit dividend that would benefit the NHS to the tune of millions of pounds a week, instead the Government will spend billions to prop up industries dealt a severe blow by Brexit at the same time as the pandemic.

Brexit was meant to free Britain from the crippling costs of membership, yet Brexit will cost us more that five decades of contributions combined.

I can go on, Pete....

Brexit would give us back our sovereignty and freedom they said, yet we've lost our voice in the biggest global trading block and our freedoms to live and work in it. We will have to follow their rules with no say in making them (oh the irony!)

Brexit means millions will lose their rights, their businesses, their say, their protections under EU law, and be worse off than they were five years ago. No last minute deal will fix that.

Johnson has decided to die on hill of the fishing industry, whilst dozens of bigger businesses and industries go to the wall (including my own), because of a nostalgic and outdated idea of "Britannia rules the waves". It makes no strategic sense.

I’m still waiting for anyone in Government or in the House of Commons to provide a credible benefit and meaningful positive outcome for Brexit. Can you, Pete?

The only action that is in the national interest, our interest, would be to reverse course and return to the EU. There is no hope of Johnson, with his 80 seat Brexiter majority, of doing that now; he'd have to resign.

So disaster gets a Union Jack on it and called a triumph.
 
Johnson and the Vote Leave campaign he led promised an immediate, easy deal that would be *better* than the one we had as members of the EU.
On every single measure it will be, after four years of arguing, demonstrably worse.

Having been a member for half a century, having exactly the same standards and laws, and the U.K. being the EU’s largest market, it was a rational view that a deal should have been an easy deal. Ask yourself why it hasn’t been. The U.K. would have been happy with a really good deal for both parties or even just a deal similar to that given to Canada. But no, the EU is terrified of a U.K. liberated from the shackles of the EU.
They promised an end to red tape and bureaucracy, yet the Government are recruiting an army of 50,000 customs agents bigger than the entire EU workforce (The EU Commission, the European Parliament and the European Council *combined* employ just 43,000 people), and crippling administrative delays to import and export trade.

We will be saying goodbye to the red tape, even though the EU is fighting tooth and nail to keep us within their laws and bureaucracy. I have no problem with no matter how many customs agents we will employ as I expect our international trade to grow in a way that was impossible within the slow moving 27 veto, glacial protectionist bloc.
They promised a Brexit dividend that would benefit the NHS to the tune of millions of pounds a week, instead the Government will spend billions to prop up industries dealt a severe blow by Brexit at the same time as the pandemic.

But it is true that we will save billions on membership fees and other costs. What it gets spent on is up to the government. The Pandemic is not the fault of Brexit, nor would being within the EU have helped. The EU still haven’t approved the Covid vaccine nor have they agreed the Covid bale out payments.
Brexit was meant to free Britain from the crippling costs of membership, yet Brexit will cost us more that five decades of contributions combined.

Until we finally leave the current arrangements you don’t know this.
I can go on, Pete....

I‘m glad because the first bit hasn’t convinced me.
Brexit would give us back our sovereignty and freedom they said, yet we've lost our voice in the biggest global trading block and our freedoms to live and work in it. We will have to follow their rules with no say in making them (oh the irony!)

The EU is not the largest economy and is a reducing market within the global marketplace. We will still trade, for no other reason than we are the EU’s biggest trading partner and the EU has an £80Bn trading surplus with us. In respect of ‘our freedom to work in the EU’, approximately how many U.K. nationals, out of our 66 million, have regular part time or full time employment within the Bloc ? When we trade with any country there are always rules and regulations if you wish to sell to them. If we increase our standards in whatever sector, the EU will have to meet those standards, without having a vote, if they wish to trade. This ‘we have to follow their rules’ guff is no different to trading anywhere in the world.
Brexit means millions will lose their rights, their businesses, their say, their protections under EU law, and be worse off than they were five years ago. No last minute deal will fix that.

Can you tell me who is worse off than five years ago. The U.K. has standards and rights certainly no lower than the EU and as a grown up country, having done this before, we have no need to be protected by EU law, U.K. law is fine, just as the USA think USA law is fine.
Johnson has decided to die on hill of the fishing industry, whilst dozens of bigger businesses and industries go to the wall (including my own), because of a nostalgic and outdated idea of "Britannia rules the waves". It makes no strategic sense.

Fishing and control of our waters is merely an important part of being a Sovereign country. Every country on the planet does it. No one gives up control of their own waters, or land, or airspace. Britannia does not rule the waves and nor do we want or need to. It only seems to be Remainers who keep harping on about this or even Empire. It’s history. What bigger businesses have gone to the wall due to Brexit ?
I’m still waiting for anyone in Government or in the House of Commons to provide a credible benefit and meaningful positive outcome for Brexit. Can you, Pete?

Yes. We become a sovereign nation again, responsible for voting in our Leaders and have a regular vote if we don’t like the way they are taking the country. You may or may not have voted for Boris, but the U.K. did and the U.K. can remove him. No citizen in the EU voted for VDL as President, and nor will they get that vote. If they don’t like her, tough. No one voted for ‘ever closer Union‘, votes that have taken place but the result not liked by Brussels have been forced to vote again. The Democratic process was a key driver for myself. In terms of U.K. GDP, the EU is less than 10% and diminishing every year. Of course it is still a big market, as we are to them, but I want to see the U.K. get back out into the world and strike up FTA’s quickly and not have a permanently compromised agreement because of the demands of the other 27, and the twenty odd years everything seems to take.
The only action that is in the national interest, our interest, would be to reverse course and return to the EU. There is no hope of Johnson, with his 80 seat Brexiter majority, of doing that now; he'd have to resign.

And this is a common failing of remainers, a fear of striking out and re-engaging with the world. The EU is not the be all and end all. I judge my friends by what they do and as is becoming ever more evident, we have more friends around the world than we do in Europe. Europe screwed us on the way in, they screwed us on the way out, and they would screw us again if the country was ever foolish enough to rejoin this failing project....
So disaster gets a Union Jack on it and called a triumph.

It will not be a disaster, the U.K. will get past it and prosper. We will re-forge old links with friends and develop new ones, and we will do it on our own, without having 27 anchors tied to our legs......
 
In respect of ‘our freedom to work in the EU’, approximately how many U.K. nationals, out of our 66 million, have regular part time or full time employment within the Bloc ?

There are around 1.2 million British born people living in another EU country, according to figures provided by the UN. Around 800,000 will be workers and their dependants.
 
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