Current Affairs EU In or Out

[catcherintherye]

I have no concern nor interest in what the Swiss do or don’t do. I couldn’t care less if any other countries join or leave the EU. My only concern is that we have left the EU and if we are to have a deal that it is a good one for the U.K. I wish the EU no harm nor ill will and hope it and ourselves prosper following different paths. It appears the only willy waving is once again coming from the remainers over some obscure vote on mobility by a country that isn’t even in the EU.....strange tbh....

The problem is, that mandates don't last forever. If I agree a deal, but can't be bothered to send a contract across, and spend weeks bragging about in the pub annoying everyone about it, who's fault is it if the deal ends up falling through?

If Brexit were to not happen, or be reversed quite quickly after this, in all honesty they could only blame the leader entrusted with delivering it for the generally ham fisted way they have negotiated and conducted the process. It's been like a litany of what not to do in running a project.

I want us to leave as well. I've always been on the fence on the EU membership, but as a democrat it is important to deliver what people vote for. It's not a mandate though to live action role play being Churchill for 4 years. Just get on with it, stop telling us of the great deal you will or won't get and get on with sealing that said great deal so we can all move forward.

As you can tell, I have very little time or patience for the sort of posers we have running things currently. If they want to bask in their moment, thats absolutely fine, but let other people get on with sorting out what needs to be sorted out so we can move forward. I mean have you seen the state of the M20 currently? It's an absolute disgrace and really needs resolving.

 

[peteblue]

The problem is, that mandates don't last forever. If I agree a deal, but can't be bothered to send a contract across, and spend weeks bragging about in the pub annoying everyone about it, who's fault is it if the deal ends up falling through?

If Brexit were to not happen, or be reversed quite quickly after this, in all honesty they could only blame the leader entrusted with delivering it for the generally ham fisted way they have negotiated and conducted the process. It's been like a litany of what not to do in running a project.

I want us to leave as well. I've always been on the fence on the EU membership, but as a democrat it is important to deliver what people vote for. It's not a mandate though to live action role play being Churchill for 4 years. Just get on with it, stop telling us of the great deal you will or won't get and get on with sealing that said great deal so we can all move forward.

As you can tell, I have very little time or patience for the sort of posers we have running things currently. If they want to bask in their moment, thats absolutely fine, but let other people get on with sorting out what needs to be sorted out so we can move forward. I mean have you seen the state of the M20 currently? It's an absolute disgrace and really needs resolving.

The public utterings from both sides are quite deliberate though and are aimed at a wider audience. Barnier does it to attempt to browbeat the government and set Sturgeon and the band of Remainers off, Boris and Co do it to address the EU countries directly. It’s a game, not a pretty game, but a game nonetheless. Barnier deliberately played the NI card to put pressure on the U.K. , he never imagined that Boris would respond with the Internal Market Bill. Dirty politics yes, but all negotiating ploys......It‘s beginning to look like the threat from Boris and his intransigence over fishing etc will pay off and that a deal of sorts will now be done.....

 

[tsubaki]

The public utterings from both sides are quite deliberate though and are aimed at a wider audience. Barnier does it to attempt to browbeat the government and set Sturgeon and the band of Remainers off, Boris and Co do it to address the EU countries directly. It’s a game, not a pretty game, but a game nonetheless. Barnier deliberately played the NI card to put pressure on the U.K. , he never imagined that Boris would respond with the Internal Market Bill. Dirty politics yes, but all negotiating ploys......It‘s beginning to look like the threat from Boris and his intransigence over fishing etc will pay off and that a deal of sorts will now be done.....

the problem with this Pete is that Johnson and his government are incompetent

I’d have thought the border being about to be in Kent might have shown this to you, but it seems not.

 

[orly]

Apparently the EU are no longer going ahead with their threats to walk away from the trade talks because of the U.K. Internal Market Bill.

The days of May rolling over to have her tummy tickled are well and truly gone....

Oooooooooor we have capitulated to such an extent in other areas they are happy to continue

 

[catcherintherye]

The public utterings from both sides are quite deliberate though and are aimed at a wider audience. Barnier does it to attempt to browbeat the government and set Sturgeon and the band of Remainers off, Boris and Co do it to address the EU countries directly. It’s a game, not a pretty game, but a game nonetheless. Barnier deliberately played the NI card to put pressure on the U.K. , he never imagined that Boris would respond with the Internal Market Bill. Dirty politics yes, but all negotiating ploys......It‘s beginning to look like the threat from Boris and his intransigence over fishing etc will pay off and that a deal of sorts will now be done.....

I've not nothing against negotiation mate, but it just needs to be sorted. I don't go massively overbaord, but if you work with a transportation business that operates largely in the South East, this sort of posuturing is ridiculous, as is the stupid updates on the M20. I sort of feel, don't tell me what you will sort, just get it sorted, they've had long enough.

I've never been one to bang on about Barnier being this great negotiator or anything else, they're all a bad as each other to me, but we just need a resolution. You seem like you've done negotiation, I can only comment on my experience, and that is working constructively with people gets you an awful lot further than playing stupid games thinking you're being clever.

I saw Bridgend the other week, go on national TV and tell the world, that their secret plan was to smoke the EU out. And you sort of think, if that was the plan, why on earth are you on national news flapping your gums to the world about it? I know I'm probably coming across as a bit like a Harry Enfield Sketch character, but if I was trying to negotiate and heard someone from "my side" had gone and done that, I'd be having a word with them, lets put it that way.

 

[catcherintherye]

Oooooooooor we have capitulated to such an extent in other areas they are happy to continue

My reading of that bill, was that for the amount of annoyance and good will they've lost, are they really getting an awful lot in return? They also don't seem to grasp that Irish Americans are generally speaking quite a conservative and influential bunch, and hold a fair bit of sway in both parties. When you're trying to woo their government, such symbolism is not massively professional.

 

[catcherintherye]

the problem with this Pete is that Johnson and his government are incompetent

I’d have thought the border being about to be in Kent might have shown this to you, but it seems not.

There will be absolute murder if that border goes up. I used to cross that "border" 5 times a week to get to work and back. I'd love to know what the plan is, if any for that? Or are we to believe brains of a snickers bar Bridgend has it under control?

 

[peteblue]

I've not nothing against negotiation mate, but it just needs to be sorted. I don't go massively overbaord, but if you work with a transportation business that operates largely in the South East, this sort of posuturing is ridiculous, as is the stupid updates on the M20. I sort of feel, don't tell me what you will sort, just get it sorted, they've had long enough.

I've never been one to bang on about Barnier being this great negotiator or anything else, they're all a bad as each other to me, but we just need a resolution. You seem like you've done negotiation, I can only comment on my experience, and that is working constructively with people gets you an awful lot further than playing stupid games thinking you're being clever.

I saw Bridgend the other week, go on national TV and tell the world, that their secret plan was to smoke the EU out. And you sort of think, if that was the plan, why on earth are you on national news flapping your gums to the world about it? I know I'm probably coming across as a bit like a Harry Enfield Sketch character, but if I was trying to negotiate and heard someone from "my side" had gone and done that, I'd be having a word with them, lets put it that way.

I agree that they have all gone off on one, and that they need to get serious about doing so. My guess would be that it’s 95% done and once the EU accept that they cannot control our fishing, state aid etc then it will be wrapped up. In my own experience these things happen, a big shouting match over something and nothing, but they don’t normally go public, and once out of the system constructive work takes place....

 

[peteblue]

Oooooooooor we have capitulated to such an extent in other areas they are happy to continue

Indeed, but let’s hope for our own sake that we haven’t eh....

 

[catcherintherye]

I agree that they have all gone off on one, and that they need to get serious about doing so. My guess would be that it’s 95% done and once the EU accept that they cannot control our fishing, state aid etc then it will be wrapped up. In my own experience these things happen, a big shouting match over something and nothing, but they don’t normally go public, and once out of the system constructive work takes place....

I would tend to agree that it's 95% done which sort of makes it more frustrating with our own government. I try to be objective, and there are questions about the EU, but the EU are sort of someone elses problem in my mind. If they mess it up they have to answer to their constituents.

I just get this sense from our government it's filled with people who'd rather tell us what they are going to do, as opposed to do it. I'm sure in businesses you've ran you've had people who tell you all the things they could do, and your response, politely would be "ok well best get on and do that then". I'm not sure there's enough of that kicking about at the moment. I never really trust people who spend a lot of time telling me all the things they can do, but I am a natural cynic!

 

[peteblue]

the problem with this Pete is that Johnson and his government are incompetent

I’d have thought the border being about to be in Kent might have shown this to you, but it seems not.

In terms of the negotiations, we appear to have a competent person leading it (not Boris, he’s just the bogeyman card we can play as required)...let’s just wait and see what happens....time is running out obviously but my guess at this point would be a deal, however we shall see.....

 

[peteblue]

I would tend to agree that it's 95% done which sort of makes it more frustrating with our own government. I try to be objective, and there are questions about the EU, but the EU are sort of someone elses problem in my mind. If they mess it up they have to answer to their constituents.

I just get this sense from our government it's filled with people who'd rather tell us what they are going to do, as opposed to do it. I'm sure in businesses you've ran you've had people who tell you all the things they could do, and your response, politely would be "ok well best get on and do that then". I'm not sure there's enough of that kicking about at the moment. I never really trust people who spend a lot of time telling me all the things they can do, but I am a natural cynic!

This is exactly how I felt during the period of May and Ollie Robbins, talk tough and give in. David Frost is made of sterner stuff, and this time the EU know it.....

 

[orly]

Indeed, but let’s hope for our own sake that we haven’t eh....

Yes. Very much yes. Because we are going to the love sandwich between the US and the EU next year.

 

[catcherintherye]

This is exactly how I felt during the period of May and Ollie Robbins, talk tough and give in. David Frost is made of sterner stuff, and this time the EU know it.....

I mean I don't know the individuals involved. My sense is, and this is from the outside looking in, that May's problem was not a lack of sterness. I always felt she was very stern, she was just strategically unable to resolve the contradictions of what she wanted. She seems to represent a lot of people's thinking that;
1) The UK was negotiating from a position of strength
2) That negotiation just involves you writing down what you want and waiting to be given it.

From my experience in negotiation, thats never been how it worked.

Johnson ostensibly went in, smoozed a bit and caved in on several key demands. He knew that this was merely a first step before further caving in was required. People may unhelpfully label it as "surrender" I wouldn't. It was a smart play from Johnson. You probably remember at the time I said as much. He won the election on the basis of avoiding the spectre of a no deal debacle and showed degre of flexibility that was required.

Again this is me from the outside though, I don't know any of the people involved.

Maybe the individuals involved are more stern. I think whats needed are strategic thinkers, people who have clarity but also elasticity and an be creative. We seemed to show that last autumn, but I haven't seen a lot of it since.

I mean I should add, and I'm not sure if you play poker, but I'll go with the analogy, the EU just have more chips at the table. When you play poker, whatever you ego tells you, if you are a small chip stack holder, you avoid bluffing the big chip stack player. Even if you think you are more skilled, more talented etc. I doubt they will get freaked into accepting key demands, though I await to see evidence to the contrary.

 

[peteblue]

I mean I don't know the individuals involved. My sense is, and this is from the outside looking in, that May's problem was not a lack of sterness. I always felt she was very stern, she was just strategically unable to resolve the contradictions of what she wanted. She seems to represent a lot of people's thinking that;
1) The UK was negotiating from a position of strength
2) That negotiation just involves you writing down what you want and waiting to be given it.

From my experience in negotiation, thats never been how it worked.

Johnson ostensibly went in, smoozed a bit and caved in on several key demands. He knew that this was merely a first step before further caving in was required. People may unhelpfully label it as "surrender" I wouldn't. It was a smart play from Johnson. You probably remember at the time I said as much. He won the election on the basis of avoiding the spectre of a no deal debacle and showed degre of flexibility that was required.

Again this is me from the outside though, I don't know any of the people involved.

Maybe the individuals involved are more stern. I think whats needed are strategic thinkers, people who have clarity but also elasticity and an be creative. We seemed to show that last autumn, but I haven't seen a lot of it since.

I mean I should add, and I'm not sure if you play poker, but I'll go with the analogy, the EU just have more chips at the table. When you play poker, whatever you ego tells you, if you are a small chip stack holder, you avoid bluffing the big chip stack player. Even if you think you are more skilled, more talented etc. I doubt they will get freaked into accepting key demands, though I await to see evidence to the contrary.

I don’t play poker or gamble in any form. However I would imagine that rather than being taken to the cleaners the small chip player can always just get up and walk away....