Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

Another one [Poor language removed]-scared of change. [Poor language removed]-scared of the fact that the future might be tough for them, instead of being an easy passage through life - a product of the 'nanny-state' where everything is handed on a plate to them. Don't feckin' preach to me about tough times. Getting out of the EU will be the best thing to happen to the UK in a long time, away from those useless bureaucratic nonentities who presently dictate a lot of what goes on here...

Just to confirm, this is not all leave voters, but analyses of the electorate in the referendum suggests that those voting to leave are disproportionately more likely to have lost out as a result of globalisation. Or to use your words, they have lost out due to changes wrought by markets or technology. Employing economic or social protectionism is an attempt to protect oneself from change. No more, no less.

Now, you'll have no argument from me that more needs to happen to make the populace more adaptable to change, and whilst I think the notion is overblown, at least Corbyn has started that discussion with the national education service idea. It's worth pointing out though that the EU has a fund for national governments to use to help communities impacted by globalisation, and our government chose not to use it in favour of our own fund. That's great, except our fund has £9 million in it, so is hardly fit for purpose.

So I quite agree in that we need to help the British population become more adaptable to rapid change, but I scarcely see how leaving the EU will do that.

 

[Old Blue 2]

What has Thatchers hideous policies of the 80's got to do with our EU membership? And yes I did live through it thanks all the same, in fact I had to do a Norman Tebbit and leave my City of birth in order to find work.

As for 'product of the Nanny State', I'm a product of hard work, determination and never giving up. I've done alright for myself as a result, but came from nothing, and no-one has ever handed my anything on a plate old stager.

As for your prediction that leaving the EU will be the best thing to happen to us in a long time, you're completely deluded if you actually believe that absolute tripe. The economists that you're so quick to decry have virtually universally been proved correct so far. The pound is tanking, GDP is already falling, and without a free trade deal post Article 50 being invoked we'll cease to be a realistic choice for global business to invest in, and the downward spiral will continue for God knows how long.

Good to read your first two paragraphs, because you came across as one who had no idea of those times. Good to see you bettered yourself, and I mean that genuinely.

All those things you mention in your third paragraph did not magically happen post-23 June. It was not the case that one day we were doing brilliantly, then the next everything went tits up. No, not at all.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Let's take these one by one, smart arse.

Not conjecture at all. Read.

Just set store by economists because they are in line with your views - simples. Nothing more.

About your name on here - yeah, you're one of the big names, and you put your views around on here big style. Fine. I'm not taken in by all the piss and wind.

As for hating Eastern Europeans. Nah, you've got that wrong. You see, you know nothing about me. I do not hate east Europeans. What you have said betrays your bitterness and vituperation towards those who voted to leave. You dropped your guard there, chico...

'old fool'. Old, yeah. Fool? Keep on thinking that. It's what draws idits like you in to making the 'east European' remark and showing you up for what you really are.

'Get out and see the world more for some life experience, mate' So you know every single thing about my life? Er, no. In fact you know almost jack-[Poor language removed] about my life, so to make a comment like that again shows you up to be someone who just wants to score points. Pathetic, mate, pathetic.

You haven't a clue as to how many different cultures I have been involved with. Come on, chico, tell me and the forum all about it. I probably have a wider range of contact/appreciation of different cultures than you have, but hey, I really don't give a [Poor language removed] about such trivial things the way you do.

Who am I listening to? Tell me. Who am I listening to? You seem to be all-knowing. Tell the forum. What's the expression? Put up or shut up.

You say I am being selfish and not thinking of the younger generation. Really? REALLY? Just because I have a different point of view to you. Let's put it this way. I am not being selfish, you are being stupid in making that statement. As for thinking of the younger generation, that is EXACTLY why I voted leave. Read many of my other posts in this thread for the reason. I can't be arsed repeating things over and over and over again.

You have not given me any advice. You have simply blown your own trumpet again, chico. Well, not so much a trumpet, more a tired old ragman's bugle...

As a man of apparent experience, do please mind your language. The advertisers that help keep this place afloat frown on placing their ads next to bad language.

 

[Old Blue 2]

As a man of apparent experience, do please mind your language. The advertisers that help keep this place afloat frown on placing their ads next to bad language.

Point taken.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

You need to understand what the phrase means before you answer to it... Hilarious!!!

And if you and other remain advocates seriously believe that the economy only started to tank after 23rd June, then you all really need to take a reality check. Or failing that, all hold hands and shout 'BOO' to the election result.

Get over it!

I understand perfectly what that phrase means, you however, seem to be struggling with it....maybe it's an age thing

As for the economy 'tanking' before the referendum, the economic forecast was for GDP growth of circa 2.3% for 2016 and similar for 2017 before the referendum.

Post the referendum that forecast is now back to sub 1%, the biggest fall in consecutive BoE growth forecasts since they were introduced.

So, if proven correct the economy will have suffered to the tune of circa 1.4% of GDP, the net cost of EU membership to the economy is equivalent to 0.4% of our current GDP.

What a saving...........

I keep hearing 'get over it' shouted by leave voters of the senior generation. Well actually, no I won't 'get over it', as I'm still incredulous at the decision tbh. I fear for the future of some of my work force and those who have the lowest current disposable income in our wider society, as it'll be them who suffer the hardest during what seems a certain recession - as always. Many of them were conned into believing the Leave propaganda and will end up - yet again - being shat on by the self serving politicians who delivered the blarney.

 

[chicoazul]

Let's take these one by one, smart arse.

Not conjecture at all. Read.

Just set store by economists because they are in line with your views - simples. Nothing more.

About your name on here - yeah, you're one of the big names, and you put your views around on here big style. Fine. I'm not taken in by all the piss and wind.

As for hating Eastern Europeans. Nah, you've got that wrong. You see, you know nothing about me. I do not hate east Europeans. What you have said betrays your bitterness and vituperation towards those who voted to leave. You dropped your guard there, chico...

'old fool'. Old, yeah. Fool? Keep on thinking that. It's what draws idits like you in to making the 'east European' remark and showing you up for what you really are.

'Get out and see the world more for some life experience, mate' So you know every single thing about my life? Er, no. In fact you know almost jack-[Poor language removed] about my life, so to make a comment like that again shows you up to be someone who just wants to score points. Pathetic, mate, pathetic.

You haven't a clue as to how many different cultures I have been involved with. Come on, chico, tell me and the forum all about it. I probably have a wider range of contact/appreciation of different cultures than you have, but hey, I really don't give a [Poor language removed] about such trivial things the way you do.

Who am I listening to? Tell me. Who am I listening to? You seem to be all-knowing. Tell the forum. What's the expression? Put up or shut up.

You say I am being selfish and not thinking of the younger generation. Really? REALLY? Just because I have a different point of view to you. Let's put it this way. I am not being selfish, you are being stupid in making that statement. As for thinking of the younger generation, that is EXACTLY why I voted leave. Read many of my other posts in this thread for the reason. I can't be arsed repeating things over and over and over again.

You have not given me any advice. You have simply blown your own trumpet again, chico. Well, not so much a trumpet, more a tired old ragman's bugle...

Sorry mate but I defo have more life experience than you. It shines through. You can't be that bigoted and claim to have perception.

No need for the big I am online mate. Laughing at your meltdown because of it. It's no thing really pal. We're just chatting about your predujices and selling out the younger generation so selfishly.

My favourite part was you dismissing world respected economists though. Well in. You know more than them. Now THATS what I call life experience.

 

[chicoazul]

Point taken.

Good, I hope you learn from it mate. How to express yourself without mimicking the language of your idol Bernard Manning.

 

[Joey66]

What has Thatchers hideous policies of the 80's got to do with our EU membership? And yes I did live through it thanks all the same, in fact I had to do a Norman Tebbit and leave my City of birth in order to find work.

As for 'product of the Nanny State', I'm a product of hard work, determination and never giving up. I've done alright for myself as a result, but came from nothing, and no-one has ever handed my anything on a plate old stager.

As for your prediction that leaving the EU will be the best thing to happen to us in a long time, you're completely deluded if you actually believe that absolute tripe. The economists that you're so quick to decry have virtually universally been proved correct so far. The pound is tanking, GDP is already falling, and without a free trade deal post Article 50 being invoked we'll cease to be a realistic choice for global business to invest in, and the downward spiral will continue for God knows how long.

Yes the mortgage rates were 11percent, but with hard work and saving I like most people else on moderate or even low pay could get on the housing ladder now interest rates low high earners finding it impossible !
Why housing shortage, and not a job for life anymore!
As a joke that German comedian stated he was worried about Brexit as he may get deported, and he would be redundant as German people don't laugh much!
Also He jibed back before the uk joined the common market he wished he could have been here then as he would have only had to work three days per week, and his electric bill would have been cheaplol
As an outer I have the sense of humour to laugh at that observation some Remainers on here should do the same, and not be sore losers!

 

[Kiwi]

*Checks in
Is this where I get to call the arl fellas senile?

 

[Joey66]

Just to confirm, this is not all leave voters, but analyses of the electorate in the referendum suggests that those voting to leave are disproportionately more likely to have lost out as a result of globalisation. Or to use your words, they have lost out due to changes wrought by markets or technology. Employing economic or social protectionism is an attempt to protect oneself from change. No more, no less.

Now, you'll have no argument from me that more needs to happen to make the populace more adaptable to change, and whilst I think the notion is overblown, at least Corbyn has started that discussion with the national education service idea. It's worth pointing out though that the EU has a fund for national governments to use to help communities impacted by globalisation, and our government chose not to use it in favour of our own fund. That's great, except our fund has £9 million in it, so is hardly fit for purpose.

So I quite agree in that we need to help the British population become more adaptable to rapid change, but I scarcely see how leaving the EU will do that.

Leaving the EU will simply state independence with by all means trade deal,in the single market with no ties to a polictical Union we spend our membership funds on our projects no eu beurocrats involved!
Also the freedom to trade in the WTO like other countries do not attached to a club that's going down the toilet!

 

[DownOnTheUpside]

honestly, the thing I welcome about us leaving is it's the first step towards dismantling the EU as a whole and forging free trade without political union with the continent
I don't understand this idea that countries have to be politically mirrored in order to have free trade - Europe has never been homogenous and is the better for it imo

 

[magicjuan]

Just to confirm, this is not all leave voters, but analyses of the electorate in the referendum suggests that those voting to leave are disproportionately more likely to have lost out as a result of globalisation. Or to use your words, they have lost out due to changes wrought by markets or technology. Employing economic or social protectionism is an attempt to protect oneself from change. No more, no less.

Now, you'll have no argument from me that more needs to happen to make the populace more adaptable to change, and whilst I think the notion is overblown, at least Corbyn has started that discussion with the national education service idea. It's worth pointing out though that the EU has a fund for national governments to use to help communities impacted by globalisation, and our government chose not to use it in favour of our own fund. That's great, except our fund has £9 million in it, so is hardly fit for purpose.

So I quite agree in that we need to help the British population become more adaptable to rapid change, but I scarcely see how leaving the EU will do that.

I've mentioned Toffler on here a few times, and all the issues of a changing technological society he predicted and addressed.

There has to be desire though, and that has to run through industry and corporations as we are so far gone now, only a change by them will we create the necessary means to adapt society for a changing future.

Toffler used the term 'futureshock' to describe how older people would struggle with a new society based on technology, but this shock has only echoed those of past industrial societies where the profit seeking was paramount above those of the people that create a society.

We have 'dumbed down' the standing of doctors, nurses and the majority of professional classes, that they have been confrontational with governments is testament to that.

We no longer invest in the infrastructure needed to make society more platable to most, that includes its population also, looking short term for profit and not longer term for the benefit of most. Until we change the mentality that people are a commodity and expendable we will always have 'futureshock' because the technology is growing exponentially and as such serves a few who control its use and direction.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

honestly, the thing I welcome about us leaving is it's the first step towards dismantling the EU as a whole and forging free trade without political union with the continent
I don't understand this idea that countries have to be politically mirrored in order to have free trade - Europe has never been homogenous and is the better for it imo

It isn't homogeneous now, nor has it been in the past, and nor will it be in the future. That doesn't escape the fact however that if you have global trade, then there has to be agreement on certain things, which inevitably leads to standardisation between those parties to the trade deal. So, for instance, a part of the common market in the EU is that we all have to abide by certain environmental or labour rules so that a company somewhere or other couldn't gain an advantage by doing things that are not good (child labour laws or excessive pollution).

That's kind of common sense really. So if Car Company A sells cars to the EU, it's unlikely that we will have wildly different standards here, especially when we get into things like driverless technology. Or Google (other web companys apply) will apply practically identical privacy regulations in Europe as they do with us.

That's part and parcel of globalisation, which is more worrying for me as Brexit is as much a vote against globalisation as it is the EU, and that's not a good thing imo.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I've mentioned Toffler on here a few times, and all the issues of a changing technological society he predicted and addressed.

There has to be desire though, and that has to run through industry and corporations as we are so far gone now, only a change by them will we create the necessary means to adapt society for a changing future.

Toffler used the term 'futureshock' to describe how older people would struggle with a new society based on technology, but this shock has only echoed those of past industrial societies where the profit seeking was paramount above those of the people that create a society.

We have 'dumbed down' the standing of doctors, nurses and the majority of professional classes, that they have been confrontational with governments is testament to that.

We no longer invest in the infrastructure needed to make society more platable to most, that includes its population also, looking short term for profit and not longer term for the benefit of most. Until we change the mentality that people are a commodity and expendable we will always have 'futureshock' because the technology is growing exponentially and as such serves a few who control its use and direction.

The Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology did a briefing note recently (http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/POST-PN-0534/POST-PN-0534.pdf) on the impact of automation of jobs, and they have a section in it on education and how people can adapt. Suffice to say, it's not really their job to come up with policy ideas, but it's noticeable (in the context of Corbyn's national education service thing) that all of the things they mention are available now, and they're available for free. In other words, it isn't a supply problem that's stopping people from re-training as there are plenty of low-cost (free) means of doing that already.

Another telling part from the paper that might be worth considering is that the UK is the lowest investor in industrial automation in the G7. Folks often look to Germany as a role model for how we can rebalance our economy towards manufacturing, but they have roughly 10 times as many industrial machines as we do, so I'm not sure that a boost in manufacturing would really correlate with a boost in jobs, especially relatively low skilled ones.

 

[DownOnTheUpside]

It isn't homogeneous now, nor has it been in the past, and nor will it be in the future. That doesn't escape the fact however that if you have global trade, then there has to be agreement on certain things, which inevitably leads to standardisation between those parties to the trade deal. So, for instance, a part of the common market in the EU is that we all have to abide by certain environmental or labour rules so that a company somewhere or other couldn't gain an advantage by doing things that are not good (child labour laws or excessive pollution).

That's kind of common sense really. So if Car Company A sells cars to the EU, it's unlikely that we will have wildly different standards here, especially when we get into things like driverless technology. Or Google (other web companys apply) will apply practically identical privacy regulations in Europe as they do with us.

That's part and parcel of globalisation, which is more worrying for me as Brexit is as much a vote against globalisation as it is the EU, and that's not a good thing imo.

Surely though a heterogenisation of standards creates a wider range of niches and hence more jobs
We already see it with eggs for example; free range eggs hold a captive market quite discreet from the caged market preventing streamlining of production and thus increasing jobs due to economies of scale

Honestly think what needs to happen is a wave of individualisation as opposed to globalisation as smaller start ups are far more labour intensive and generally quicker to adapt to changing conditions
To achieve this we need a major stripping back of regulations at both international (eu legislation) and national (intellectual property etc) levels