Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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General Election.
42 days notice required (?)
Always on a Thursday
31st Oct is a thursday - so thats out and its also the PMs cut off date
24th is a Thursday
42 days before = 11th Sept.
6 days to do it.
could be a struggle as the lords have to pass the bill on no brexit, before Labour would agree to it.
up to midday there is 102 amendments to talk about, there is no time limit on how long each one can be talked about.
labour have tried to have a guillotine put forward to chop business time spent to get it through by friday but that has to pass tonight.
a lot of lords members will vote against it as it sets a dangerous precedent , the basic job of the lords is to scrutinise bills with no time limits , unlike the commons, and find any faults/within the law ect, and sending it back to the commons to get fixed before getting royal asset.
if they give in it will enable future governments to bulldoze bills through without proper scrutiny , basically makes the house of lords not worth having, fine by me but not for them or there supporter.
 
They didn’t spend during the bust. They spent to elongate the boom. Subtle but important difference.

At what point does national debt become unsustainable? If you spend in the boom and don’t save (as happened) how can you spend anything when you don’t have anything. Credit rating is important, it would have been close to bankrupting the country.

The overwhelming share of the spending spike in 2008 and 2009 came from having to prevent the entire financial system melting down (exacerbated by a decade-long bipartisan push for mindless financialisation and deregulation) - so, hardly 'unsolicited' spending, unless you're a full-on Mad Max libertarian.

And anyhow, even if (for the sake of argument - I'm not conceding the point) Labour spending was excessive before the crash, it doesn't change that austerity during the recession is every bit as procyclical as spending during a boom, to far more disastrous effect.

What is even worse is that due to austerity in the EU and especially the UK, monetary policy has had to do all the lifting, such that we now have trillions of conjured QE money sloshing around with no productive place to go, distorting markets through cheap money-driven M&A consolidation, and asset bubbles in real estate and equities. This in turn has made housing unaffordable for an entire generation, suppressed wages even at allegedly full employment, stalled productivity growth (why risk spending on research and innovation why you can use the tidal wave of essentially interest-free QE money to just buy back your own shares instead), deligitimised liberal democracy across the West, and fueled inequality not seen since the Victorians (of course, equities and real estate are mostly excluded from inflation calculations, and as policy makers have discovered, you can invent trillions of dollars and even risk deflation!!! so long as you strike real estate/equities from the ledger and ensure that no ordinary people get so much as a whiff of the effectively invented bailout money).

We are now entering a world where negative interest rates are increasingly the norm, perhaps soon even in America, yet even now, with pension funds and the bond markets on their knees begging, governments still refuse to invest (even as our schools can no longer afford to stay open for the full week). The entire developed world could end up like 90s Japan. Take Germany, which is dutifully racking up pointless surpluses while its roads fall apart, its telecom infrastructure has become the laughingstock of Western Europe, inequality skyrockets, and its industrial champions - the sole basis of its postwar prosperity - have their lunch eaten by competitors in countries like China which have ignored the IMF and Milton Friedman to world-historical effect, and which are investing in productive and future world-leading outputs like 5G or renewable fuel cells, rather than in new ways to cheat on emissions tests.

We have by now essentially broken the global bond market - which is to say, pension funds, and have spent the past ten years creating dozens of overlapping speculative bubbles, as even investors who represent actual workers and who want nothing more than safe long term growth are forced to pump money into high risk private equity and fake tech nonsense like Wework and Uber, if not Theranos, just to eke out returns.

Even the unemployment figures you refer to are in practice mostly nonsense, because the jobs are all terrible zero-hours gig economy stop gaps that don't pay people enough to pay the rent or support a family.

And the worst thing is that when the overlapping speculative bubbles pumped up by the avalanche of QE money inevitably burst, there will be virtually no monetary recourse, because the economy will have collapsed with the central banks' hands already pulling full throttle on the emergency lever.

We could have avoided all of this with basic Keynesian countercyclical fiscal policy, but instead, we fall back on the disease of an idea that governments which borrow in currency upon whose creation they enjoy a monopoly!!! should comport themselves like bourgeois fantasies of how a working class household is supposed to behave.

Now, tell me why I'm all wrong and all of this is actually brilliant.

I am genuinely curious (but also bracing myself) to hear what they are teaching these days in Econ school.
 
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The overwhelming share of the spending spike in 2008 and 2009 came from having to prevent the entire financial system melting down (exacerbated by a decade-long bipartisan push for mindless financialisation and deregulation) - so, hardly 'unsolicited' spending, unless you're a full-on Mad Max libertarian.

And anyhow, even if (for the sake of argument - I'm not conceding the point) Labour spending was excessive before the crash, it doesn't change that austerity during the recession is every bit as procyclical as spending during a boom, to far more disastrous effect.

What is even worse is that due to austerity in the EU and especially the UK, monetary policy has had to do all the lifting, such that we now have trillions of conjured QE money sloshing around with no productive place to go, distorting markets through cheap money-driven M&A consolidation, and asset bubbles in real estate and equities. This in turn has made housing unaffordable for an entire generation, suppressed wages even at allegedly full employment, stalled productivity growth (why risk spending on research and innovation why you can use the tidal wave of essentially interest-free QE money to just buy back your own shares instead), deligitimised liberal democracy across the West, and fueled inequality not seen since the Victorians (of course, equities and real estate are mostly excluded from inflation calculations, and as policy makers have discovered, you can invent trillions of dollars and even risk deflation!!! so long as you strike real estate/equities from the ledger and ensure that no ordinary people get so much as a whiff of the effectively invented bailout money).

We are now entering a world where negative interest rates are increasingly the norm, perhaps soon even in America, yet even now, with pension funds and the bond markets on their knees begging, governments still refuse to invest (even as our schools can no longer afford to stay open for the full week). The entire developed world could end up like 90s Japan. Take Germany, which is dutifully racking up pointless surpluses while its roads fall apart, its telecom infrastructure has become the laughingstock of Western Europe, inequality skyrockets, and its industrial champions - the sole basis of its postwar prosperity - have their lunch eaten by competitors in countries like China which have ignored the IMF and Milton Friedman to world-historical effect, and which are investing in productive and future world-leading outputs like 5G or renewable fuel cells, rather than in new ways to cheat on emissions tests.

We have by now essentially broken the global bond market - which is to say, pension funds, and have spent the past ten years creating dozens of overlapping speculative bubbles, as even investors who represent actual workers and who want nothing more than safe long term growth are forced to pump money into high risk private equity and fake tech nonsense like Wework and Uber, if not Theranos, just to eke out returns.

Even the unemployment figures you refer to are in practice mostly nonsense, because the jobs are all terrible zero-hours gig economy stop gaps that don't pay people enough to pay the rent or support a family.

And the worst thing is that when the overlapping speculative bubbles pumped up by the avalanche of QE money inevitably burst, there will be virtually no monetary recourse, because the economy will have collapsed with the central banks' hands already pulling full throttle on the emergency lever.

We could have avoided all of this with basic Keynesian countercyclical fiscal policy, but instead, we fall back on the disease of an idea that governments which borrow in currency upon whose creation they enjoy a monopoly!!! should comport themselves like bourgeois fantasies of how a working class household is supposed to behave.

Now, tell me why I'm all wrong and all of this is actually brilliant.

I am genuinely curious (but also bracing myself) to hear what they are teaching these days in Econ school.

Ok. First paragraph you quoted me with ‘unsolicited’ spending - did I say that? Doesn’t sound like me.

Secondly you can’t spend out of a recession if there’s nothing left to spend. Do you agree with that?

Please advise which countries bonds have done well in the last decade.

How can you be counter cyclical when the country’s national debt to gdp ratio is already above 70% interested to see how far up the creek you’d have taken us to see this come good... over 100%?

one of the fundementals of anti-austerity is that employment drops with austerity measures. Please tell me why employment is at a record high - this is a real world real life non-model indication that the theory isn’t sound. Would you agree with that?

when I’m not at work I’ll give a depth analysis of what you said and counter properly, but in the mean time if you could advise.

Also you’ve written a long long message, but it’s not really pertinent to anything I’ve written in the replied comment. Plus, as previously mentioned, it was over 10 years ago (more like 15 actually) that I studied, so I’ve no clue what they teach ‘these days’, but they taught to reply with relevant prose to the replied to text in ‘my day’
 
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I appreciate it’s semantics, but he was spending on the downside before we went into negative growth.

If he was doing as you said, wouldn’t that discredit everything every anti austerity economist (including the IMF) has ever said about how to tackle tough times? Because we were in a far worse state for longer.

If we were a household, the mortgage lenders would have taken the property from us. Our national debt relative to gdp needs to come right down

I get your point on debt but your blaming Brown for for us being in a worse state for longer?

My understanding was that he did very well to ride out 2008 and we started to recover faster than most, it was the policy of austerity, which you earlier advocated, which caused us to be in a worse state for longer.
 
Leaver on Five Live just now, asked to choose between BJ & JC:

"None of them. They've let the EU do what Hitler couldn't do - break the backbone of the country and fill it full of foreign crap. Don't do no checks on 'em. I want to get out of the EU and turn this back into Britain".
 
Leaver on Five Live just now, asked to choose between BJ & JC:

"None of them. They've let the EU do what Hitler couldn't do - break the backbone of the country and fill it full of foreign crap. Don't do no checks on 'em. I want to get out of the EU and turn this back into Britain".

You get idiots on both sides. They tend to be the ones the broadcasters go for these days (unfortunately).
 
Leaver on Five Live just now, asked to choose between BJ & JC:

"None of them. They've let the EU do what Hitler couldn't do - break the backbone of the country and fill it full of foreign crap. Don't do no checks on 'em. I want to get out of the EU and turn this back into Britain".

Exactly how I feel, all afternoon I’ve been reading this book, I must of read it 100 times.

It’s scary how accurate it is. All his predictions have came true.
 

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Really scrabbling around for bait now, aren't you?

What? Maybe if you didn’t hate Britain and read about historical political figures, like Powell and Benn.

You’d have the zeal of a convert and start to believe in an independent Britain.
 
I have people in my family who voted remain, I feel like they don’t understand the gravity of what they’ve voted for. But they also respect the referendum results, if only politicians could, we’d have a unified country again.
 
See you in your next incarnation bud

Threats to kill? You can get 12 months in prison that.

Yesterday someone on here said they wish I died in an disaster in a homophobic rant.

What is your problem, does your brain not comprehend the positives of leaving, or remaining.

So you have to threaten other posters.
 
I really struggle to wrap my head around what a truly liberal leaver's worldview is, to be honest.

Well i'm liberal, and I voted leave.

I want people to be safe and happy. I don't care what people do as long as they don't try and force beliefs and behaviours on me and the same goes for me forcing it on people the other way round.

I believe that if you have a democratic vote it should be respected.

I didn't believe the EU is something that is worth sticking with. I don't think it's a brilliant entity. It's a capitalist state. So it's weird so many people on the left think it's amazing. However, I accept the argument that we could try to reform from within, which I don't trust the current goverment to do. I trusted Labour in 2017, but I think Corbyn's bowing to party pressure is what has put me off him.

Overall I genuinely just want people to be able to get on with their lives and as long as they are happy, then that's fine.

I didn't vote out because of immigration, though I accept a lot of people did. I voted out because I don't like the bureaucracy of the EU, and I didn't think at that stage it'd be something I wanted the UK to join.

I don't know what else I need to show that I'm liberal. What about all those Labour voters who have voted Labour all of their lives who voted out? Are they all conservative?
 
You might not like to hear it, but Irish English Welsh Scottish are all the same people. Most of Scousers have Irish blood, and Dublin was built by the English.


Ulster is as British as Essex.

Sammy Wilson DUP made a great point, here


We must stop the EU from annexing our country.


You're on a wind-up you clown. No sane or sober person would ever compare Northern Ireland to Essex.

In Essex is there approx. 50% of the population foreign nationals?

Actually does everyone in Essex automatically get citizenship of a foreign country?

Is there an international treaty safeguarding reunification with a foreign country as soon as the vote looks likely?

Lastly, did Britain March into Essex, butcher half the population then illegally occupy it and mismanage it for a few hundred years?
 
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