Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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There is absolutely nothing new in there at all. And yet again it is written in a way that only shows how difficult things will be for the U.K. and completely ignores the fact that the EU similarly will not have a free trade deal with its largest trading partner and that the introduction of tariffs favour the U.K. The ‘negotiations’ that have so far taken place have been completely one sided, with a remainer bias from our civil service. That will now change. Either we do a deal or we don’t, whatever it is we will live with it and prosper.....

So if I were to search for mentions of Article 218 by you or any of the 10 candidates vying to be prime minister I'll find a wealth of information that passed me by (because that's news to me)?

Come now Pete. Be honest. Before you read that article (and I'll be kind and believe you did actually read it), you hadn't even heard of Article 218.
 
So if I were to search for mentions of Article 218 by you or any of the 10 candidates vying to be prime minister I'll find a wealth of information that passed me by (because that's news to me)?

Come now Pete. Be honest. Before you read that article (and I'll be kind and believe you did actually read it), you hadn't even heard of Article 218.

Can I assume there were 217 articles before article 218? And we needed legal advice on stuff to do with Article 50 a year or so back?

If so, I will suggest Petes pants are on fire if he says he knew about it.
 
So if I were to search for mentions of Article 218 by you or any of the 10 candidates vying to be prime minister I'll find a wealth of information that passed me by (because that's news to me)?

Come now Pete. Be honest. Before you read that article (and I'll be kind and believe you did actually read it), you hadn't even heard of Article 218.

Of course I was aware of it, in fact I think it was even mentioned in this thread. However while we may become a third country, we are not at the moment, and it works both ways.......
 
Can I assume there were 217 articles before article 218? And we needed legal advice on stuff to do with Article 50 a year or so back?

If so, I will suggest Petes pants are on fire if he says he knew about it.

Then you would be wrong.....
 
@peteblue I know you’ve answered why you want to leave a good few times in this thread. We know you dislike the EU control. Could you please answer what the benefit to your life will be if we do leave? What are the fundamental things that will make you and your family better off if we leave? What will change positively if we leave? Will it be cheaper to stock your pub? Will staff at your pub earn higher wages and so have a better quality of lives themselves?

And if your business and your staff will do better in your opinion, how long will it take to see those benefits? Can your business survive that long? Can your staff stay working for you on relatively lower wages while everyone waits for things to get better?
 
You get the drift.
D880NXhWwAI2ntg
 
I thought this in the Economist was very educational, not least the fact that if we lurch out without a deal we subsequently negotiate future arrangements with the EU under a different article that is much harder to get approval through. I'm sure @Joey66 , @peteblue et al knew all of this, but I'm not entirely sure the 10 candidates do, or they're fond of keeping their light under a bushel.

"Fully ten leadership candidates faced a first ballot of Conservative mps as we went to press. In hopes of being one of the final two to go through to a vote by party members, they are vying to promise the most extravagant tax and spending plans. But the immediate challenge for the winner, who will take office in late July, will be Brexit, which is due to happen three months later. And here the promises vary from instant renegotiation of Britain’s exit deal to withdrawing with no deal at all.

The timing is tight. Parliament is likely to go into recess just after the new prime minister is installed, and the European Union will go on holiday. mps come back in September, but for less than two weeks before their party conferences. Brussels will be preoccupied with getting a new commission approved by the European Parliament by November 1st. A summit of eu leaders on October 17th-18th will come just a fortnight before the Brexit deadline.

The eu has made clear that it will not reopen the withdrawal agreement, which includes the backstop to avert a hard border in Ireland. Even so, most Tory leadership candidates promise a swift renegotiation, and many are talking of a time limit to the backstop. Although a new prime minister would be listened to politely, it is fanciful to expect the eu to abandon the Irish—especially for a mistrusted hardliner such as Boris Johnson, the early favourite. That raises the chances of no-deal.

And here two misconceptions kick in. The first is the claim that Parliament is sure to prevent a no-deal Brexit. A majority of mps have voted against the idea. In March backbenchers even took control of the agenda to call for an extension. The speaker of the Commons, John Bercow, is willing to change the usual rules if necessary. Somehow or other, the argument goes, Westminster would stop a prime minister who is bent on leaving without a deal.

This may turn out to be correct, but it is not a certainty. No-deal is the default option in the absence of other action before October 31st. Any further extension of the deadline also requires the unanimous approval of eu governments. Charles Grant of the Centre for European Reform, a think-tank, believes they may agree, but adds that some exasperated leaders just want Brexit out of the way, deal or no deal.

Hardline leadership candidates like Dominic Raab have suggested suspending Parliament until November to stop it interfering. The attorney-general is reported to have called this unconstitutional but not illegal. Yet most candidates have condemned it as too anti-democratic to be a serious proposal. What is more, suspension is a royal prerogative, and no serious leader would want to draw the queen into political controversy.

Still, there are limits to what mps can do. The March gambit—taking over the parliamentary timetable to pass a law demanding another extension—relied on there being legislation or an amendable motion before mps. Brexiteers believe they can avoid both. On June 12th Labour lost by 11 votes an attempt to secure a day to try to block no-deal by law. It may have another go, but a new prime minister could deny it the necessary debating time.

The nuclear option might be a vote of no confidence in the prime minister. Yet any such vote is likely only in late October, after the eusummit. It might not be carried, as Tory mps fear an election (see article). Even if it were, the Fixed-term Parliaments Act allows 14 days for a new prime minister to try to form a new government. If no one could do so, the outgoing prime minister could defer the date of a new election beyond October 31st. Hannah White of the Institute for Government, another think-tank, concludes that, though mps may do their utmost to stop no-deal, a determined prime minister might thwart them.

This brings in the second big misconception, which is that no-deal would soon lead to friendly talks on a speedy free-trade agreement similar to Canada’s, during which both sides could agree not to impose trade barriers. This is highly unlikely. A no-deal Brexit in October would be acrimonious, especially if a new prime minister refused to pay the £39bn ($50bn) that Britain has agreed it owes. That would scupper hopes for a series of “mini-deals” to reduce disruption, as some candidates promise.

Any bid to start trade negotiations would see the eu putting all the demands in the withdrawal agreement back on the table as preconditions. It would also be impossible to exploit the rules of the World Trade Organisation that can allow trade barriers to be avoided. The wto’s non-discrimination provisions permit this only if both parties agree and are well on the way to forming a new customs union or free-trade deal, neither of which would be the case after a no-deal Brexit.

No-deal also has serious legal implications. Britain would become a third country. That not only implies tariffs and non-tariff barriers, but also falling out of most of the eu’s regulatory agencies. Membership of the Europol crime-fighting agency would lapse, as would eligibility to use the European Arrest Warrant. Replacing any of these would be time-consuming.

And there is a treaty obstacle. So far Brexit negotiations have come under Article 50, allowing a deal to be agreed by a majority of eugovernments and approved only by the European Parliament. Once Britain is a third country, any negotiations would fall under a different provision, probably Article 218, which requires not just unanimous agreement but also ratification by all national and several regional parliaments. After Britain had repudiated the negotiated withdrawal agreement, the temptation for one of these bodies to reject any replacement deal would be large.

The risk of a no-deal Brexit under a new prime minister is greater than many think, and the consequences more serious. Any would-be Tory leader should acknowledge this. The worry is that many of them don’t even seem to realise it."

Source: https://www.economist.com/britain/2...-are-misleading-people-about-a-no-deal-brexit
In a nutshell
 
@peteblue I know you’ve answered why you want to leave a good few times in this thread. We know you dislike the EU control. Could you please answer what the benefit to your life will be if we do leave? What are the fundamental things that will make you and your family better off if we leave? What will change positively if we leave? Will it be cheaper to stock your pub? Will staff at your pub earn higher wages and so have a better quality of lives themselves?

And if your business and your staff will do better in your opinion, how long will it take to see those benefits? Can your business survive that long? Can your staff stay working for you on relatively lower wages while everyone waits for things to get better?

Two completely different issues. The second one regarding the pub being in or out of the EU will have no effect. Myself and the small group of people who own the business did it purely to save the pub from developers. It is running profitably and generating cash. Our people get paid more than those doing similar work in other pubs. We, the owners, treat it as both a business and a hobby and while financial considerations come second, it is on target to beat our original financial targets by 25-35%.

In respect of leaving the EU it has never been a financial issue for me, and by that I don’t mean ‘I’m alright jack’ just that I don’t believe any of the doom mongering and fully believe that as an independent country we will prosper. In terms of my family, I do not want them tied to the bureaucracy of the EU, the inability to change the people at the top via a vote, nor to have economic strategy or international relations determined by Germany & France. The EU is, while everyone lies and dismisses it, becoming a United States of Europe. I’ve said before that if we absolutely must belong to some ‘super bloc’ then I would rather it be the USA. I do however believe that the U.K. is more than capable of standing on its own feet. In terms of defence, I see the EU wanting to wrest control from NATO and set up its own EU army, which I think is a most dangerous situation and again I would not wish to be part of it. So my reasons have never been for financial benefit, which I believe will come anyway, but more for democracy and the safety of my family. I’m sure you will disagree with the above, but that’s what does it for me.....
 
I still don’t believe we will leave the eu.... not because we don’t want to or there is no appetite for it but purely because we are so far entrenched in it and all of the rules and treaty’s and agreements over the years are too difficult or damn near impossible to solve satisfactorily for enough people involved to reach an agreement.
 
I see the EU are now saying that we can’t even leave with a no deal at the end of October, suggesting that an extension would be required to have a managed no deal exit. What they are really suggesting of course is that while they definitely will not reopen negotiations, if we are intent on no deal they actually will........Boris is winning more concessions from the EU before he’s even appointed than May did in 3 years.....
 
Two completely different issues. The second one regarding the pub being in or out of the EU will have no effect. Myself and the small group of people who own the business did it purely to save the pub from developers. It is running profitably and generating cash. Our people get paid more than those doing similar work in other pubs. We, the owners, treat it as both a business and a hobby and while financial considerations come second, it is on target to beat our original financial targets by 25-35%.

In respect of leaving the EU it has never been a financial issue for me, and by that I don’t mean ‘I’m alright jack’ just that I don’t believe any of the doom mongering and fully believe that as an independent country we will prosper. In terms of my family, I do not want them tied to the bureaucracy of the EU, the inability to change the people at the top via a vote, nor to have economic strategy or international relations determined by Germany & France. The EU is, while everyone lies and dismisses it, becoming a United States of Europe. I’ve said before that if we absolutely must belong to some ‘super bloc’ then I would rather it be the USA. I do however believe that the U.K. is more than capable of standing on its own feet. In terms of defence, I see the EU wanting to wrest control from NATO and set up its own EU army, which I think is a most dangerous situation and again I would not wish to be part of it. So my reasons have never been for financial benefit, which I believe will come anyway, but more for democracy and the safety of my family. I’m sure you will disagree with the above, but that’s what does it for me.....
Just 3 points from your reply.

Do you not value the right for your family to travel freely and , under certain conditions, live and work in any of 27 other European countries.

Re NATO. That's like the Foreign Legion of the U.S. military. Safer? Who other than those Washington war mongers would put tanks and missiles on the Russian borders in the Baltic region? Can the UK military do anything without the approval of the Pentagon?

You'd rather belong to the USA than to the EU? Should we leave the EU, I believe the Americans would swoop like vultures on our remaining institutions and businesses,asset strip them and leave whatever is left of the UK with the US colony status of Costa Rica.
 
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