Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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And I think it is worth saying that in an ordinary election you do get a chance 5 years later to kick out anyone who has lied or not delivered. This one has an air of permanent change about it on such a small majority for such a big virtually constitutional change. Bloke who lies in an interview does not get the job if the references come through as dodgy? Obviously you can't just keep on re doing it though.
 
The analysts are already busy sifting through what evidence they have for the way the vote went.

The E U wasn't all that popular even with its supporters in the U K. There may be an underlying reason for this. Most of Europe shares a common history of needing help from others in very perilous situations ... occupation, hunger, persecution. Even with its peculiarities, Europeans are prepared to put up with the E U on the grounds that they don't want those days back.

The U K doesn't have recent experience of its population being "put in chains" - subject to the whim of an invader. Unless you count 1066 as 'recent'.

I'm not by any means claiming this is the main or only reason for the vote; just that it has played its part in setting the mood music over the last thirty five years of niggling discontent with the British position, half in, half out and vaguely troubled with it.
 
The people sincerely calling for a second referendum are a joke. We were lied to they wail, well get this. The remain side told lies to. David Cameron said war was inevitable if we voted to leave and 'turn our backs on the EU' or what about Donald Tusks whopper 'Brexit will mean the end of western civilisation'. The remain side told plenty of lies themselves but Bremainers have already forgotten them, I wonder why! The people protesting were basically protesting against democracy. you can't just stamp your fear and say 'I support democracy but only when it does what I want', these people obviously don't support it. The best thing about living in a free society is that you can leave anytime you want, so I'd suggest to extremely unhappy remainers if they feel that strongly about Brexit that your prepared to take a dump on democracy, leave then. If your so much more European then British feel free to more out there. Or alternatively, if you wanted to remain but respect the will of the majority and democracy at work, then it's time to stop crying over spilt milk and got on life.
 
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The people sincerely calling for a second referendum are a joke. We were lied to they wail, well get this. The remain side told lies to. David Cameron said war was inevitable if we voted to leave and 'turn our backs on the EU' or what about Donald Tusks whopper 'Brexit will mean the end of western civilisation'. The remain side told plenty of lies themselves but Bremainers have already forgotten them, I wonder why! The people protesting were basically protesting against democracy. you can't just stamp your fear and say 'I support democracy but only when it does what I want', these people obviously don't support it. The best thing about living in a free society is that you can leave anytime you want, so I'd suggest to extremely unhappy remainers if they feel that strongly about Brexit that your prepared to take a dump on democracy, leave then. If your so much more European then British feel free to more out there. Or alternatively, if you wanted to remain but respect the will of the majority and democracy at work, then it's time to stop crying over spilt milk and got on life.

Wars and the end of civilization take time to happen, so how can they be declared a lie, unless you expected them to occur within a week of the vote? For instance, many suggested that, a possible re-unificatin of Ireland could destabilize things, or a rise in extremist politics throughout the world would see growing intolerance. These things are still very possible, but they aren't things that happen instantly.

The lies from the leave campaign were debunked as just that during the campaign itself (by the chap in the video I posted prior to this amongst others), and by leave officials themselves within hours of the polls closing.

Re your last point about moving, that's quite probably what I will do, but I'll leave this with you. My other half is one of those migrants that works in the NHS. She's lived here for nearly 15 years now, has a couple of degrees from here and has sweated and toiled in the NHS for a decade. Since the referendum she no longer feels welcome in the place she has grown to call home.

Does that make you feel proud?
 
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Wars and the end of civilization take time to happen, so how can they be declared a lie, unless you expected them to occur within a week of the vote? For instance, many suggested that, for instance, a possible re-unificatin of Ireland could destabilize things, or a rise in extremist politics throughout the world would see growing intolerance. These things are still very possible, but they aren't things that happen instantly.

The lies from the leave campaign were debunked as just that during the campaign itself (by the chap in the video I posted prior to this amongst others), and by leave officials themselves within hours of the polls closing.

Re your last point about moving, that's quite probably what I will do, but I'll leave this with you. My other half is one of those migrants that works in the NHS. She's lived here for nearly 15 years now, has a couple of degrees from here and has sweated and toiled in the NHS for a decade. Since the referendum she no longer feels welcome in the place she has grown to call home.

Does that make you feel proud?
Why should it make me feel ashamed exactly Bruce? If your other half feel's uncomfortable and unwelcome I'm sorry about that but that's no work of mine. I'm perfectly happy with legit skilled workers coming to live here, and from what you've written it seems she would be more then qualified. I voted what I believed in my hart to be the best thing for this country. This is the issue with some remainers, you won't except that lots of people had very good reasons to vote as they did and it doesn't make them a bad person for doing so.

All these nonsense fear mongering stories the remain side told only hurt their argument, and possibly were the reason they lost. People don't like being threatened and to say war is inevitable of we have the temerity to leave a club we were never officially asked to join in the first place sounds like a fairly big threat to me. And the end of western civilisation? You think that's on the cards because we choose not to stay in the EU? Wow.
 
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If only the establishment had been wise enough to give 25 votes to each person living in certain postcodes and a fraction of a vote to the rest, all this leave "nonsense" could have been avoided!

As Disraeli noted in 1845,

Two nations between whom there is no intercourse and no sympathy; who are as ignorant of each other's habits, thoughts, and feelings, as if they were dwellers in different zones, or inhabitants of different planets. The rich and the poor.

"Sybil - or Two Nations" 1845.
 
Why should it make me feel ashamed exactly Bruce? If your other half feel's uncomfortable and unwelcome I'm sorry about that but that's no work of mine. I'm perfectly happy with legit skilled workers coming to live here, and from what you've written it seems she would be more then qualified. I voted what I believed in my hart to be the best thing for this country. This is the issue with some remainers, you won't except that lots of people had very good reasons to vote as they did and it doesn't make them a bad person for doing so.

All these nonsense fear mongering stories the remain side told only hurt their argument, and possibly were the reason they lost. People don't like being threatened and to say war is inevitable of we have the temerity to leave a club we were never officially asked to join in the first place sounds like a fairly big threat to me. And the end of western civilisation? You think that's on the cards because we choose not to stay in the EU? Wow.

You don't think this vote has legitimized racist thoughts and actions in any way? I'll say again, that was predicted prior to the referendum and dismissed as scaremongering, yet not only have those on the political extremes lauded the result, but there has also been a rise in racist incidences across the country. So those fears have been very much vindicated.

Regarding the skilled workers, you might be but surely you can see that the general climate in the country is more anti-foreigner now than it was a year ago. Whether someone is technically allowed to remain in the country, if there's a perception that someone isn't wanted then no amount of technicalities will persuade them to stay.

There has been much written about how commerce dislikes uncertainty, but the same is true at an individual level, as there has been absolutely no meat on the bones from leave campaigners about just what will happen once we leave in regards to EU citizens living and working in Britain now. You have people with mortgages and businesses that may have to leave the country, you have researchers that are being shut out of bids due to the uncertainty involved.

Regarding your final point, of course the end of western civilization is hyperbole, unquestionably. What I do think however is that the probability of unrest has increased significantly, and I said as much several times on this forum before the vote. Ireland has an increased probability of unrest. Scotland and the breakup of the Union seems to have increased in likelihood. The rise of extremist political parties has grown in probability since the election, as has the prospect of an extremist entering the White House. Whilst it's unlikely that these things will signal the end of western civilization, none of them are positive in regards to the way of life we cherish so dearly.

As for war, well history is littered with examples of wars emerging when countries have reason to hate on one another, so it seems reasonable to me that if the EU falls apart that this raises the possibility of war blighting Europe again. That's not fear mongering, that's just observing history. The whole idea of the likes of the EU and NATO was to ensure that the world is so inter-connected in terms of the flow of trade, people and information that war would be nonsensical, and it has worked in that we haven't had conflict in western-Europe since then.

You may regard this as unlikely, but we've seen in this country the rise in hate-crime against those who the nutters feel legitimized in blaming for whatever woes have befallen them. Now place yourself in a scenario whereby those nutters are actually in government, as we might have soon in places like Austria or maybe even France and America. Is that a nice picture to you? Is that a picture you see coming out well?
 
Wars and the end of civilization take time to happen, so how can they be declared a lie, unless you expected them to occur within a week of the vote? For instance, many suggested that, for instance, a possible re-unificatin of Ireland could destabilize things, or a rise in extremist politics throughout the world would see growing intolerance. These things are still very possible, but they aren't things that happen instantly.

The lies from the leave campaign were debunked as just that during the campaign itself (by the chap in the video I posted prior to this amongst others), and by leave officials themselves within hours of the polls closing.

Re your last point about moving, that's quite probably what I will do, but I'll leave this with you. My other half is one of those migrants that works in the NHS. She's lived here for nearly 15 years now, has a couple of degrees from here and has sweated and toiled in the NHS for a decade. Since the referendum she no longer feels welcome in the place she has grown to call home.

Does that make you feel proud?

Talk of wars is nonsense Bruce. There is more likelihood of war if the EU continues to grow and threaten Russia than by the UK leaving the EU.

In respect of your other half, this is extremely sad but is as much the fault of those seeking to denigrate all Leave voters by trying to smear them as racists and therefore raise uncertainties for foreign born people.....
 
What I do think however is that the probability of unrest has increased significantly, and I said as much several times on this forum before the vote. Ireland has an increased probability of unrest. Scotland and the breakup of the Union seems to have increased in likelihood. The rise of extremist political parties has grown in probability since the election,

Bruce,
One cannot base factual happenings on 'probability' (otherwise England would be playing France tonight!).

The reason why there might be future unrest in Ireland and Scotland is because they are part of a democratic process, and having engaged fully in that democratic process, now throw their toys, and everything else, out of the pram because that democratic process didn't go the way they wanted it to.

And tell me about all of these extremist political parties that have risen since the election.

The only risable thing is the continuing polemic put out by the Remain supporters who will not accept the decision of the country on the Referendum. THEY are the extremists...
 
Bruce,
One cannot base factual happenings on 'probability' (otherwise England would be playing France tonight!).

The reason why there might be future unrest in Ireland and Scotland is because they are part of a democratic process, and having engaged fully in that democratic process, now throw their toys, and everything else, out of the pram because that democratic process didn't go the way they wanted it to.

And tell me about all of these extremist political parties that have risen since the election.

The only risable thing is the continuing polemic put out by the Remain supporters who will not accept the decision of the country on the Referendum. THEY are the extremists...

.....And the ones fermenting unrest.........
 
Time will tell Pete. Hopefully you're right.

I hope so Bruce. We need the remain people to get behind the vote. To continue denying it is what will cause unrest and division. It is causing uncertainty and becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.......Either we believe in democracy or we don't, there can be no shades of grey......
 
One cannot base factual happenings on 'probability' (otherwise England would be playing France tonight!).

In an uncertain world that's all you can work in. Any decent exploration of the future will work on a number of scenarios with differing rates of probability. It's the people saying "if you do this then this will result" that you have to be wary of as there's no such thing as certainty.

Philip Tetlock published a good book on the topic last year if you're interested (a review of it here http://www.economist.com/news/books...nt-luckily-it-can-be-learned-unclouded-vision)

The reason why there might be future unrest in Ireland and Scotland is because they are part of a democratic process, and having engaged fully in that democratic process, now throw their toys, and everything else, out of the pram because that democratic process didn't go the way they wanted it to.

The language of 'throwing toys out of the pram' suggests that the very real concerns voiced are somehow invalid or childish. Do you think that helps matters? Indeed, few of the concerns raised have been addressed with anything more than a sense that it will be alright in the end, even as the lies are owned up to and the leaders of the leave campaign jump ship. It leaves a very uneasy impression that not only was the whole thing not thought through but no one is willing to stand by it now that time has come to act.

And tell me about all of these extremist political parties that have risen since the election.

They haven't risen from nothing to notoriety in the past 2 weeks, cmon now, let's not be silly about this. As I said several times on this forum way before the referendum, there is a growing populist movement throughout Europe on both left and right, and the one thing that binds them all is their willingness to blame others for the perceived woes of those they seek to attract.

Whether you like it or not, the vote to leave has put wind in their sails as they see it as a great liberal and mercantile nation saying they want less of both. You may not have voted with that in mind, but the fact that Wilders, le Pen, Trump, Putin et al have all come out saying what a great thing Britain has done should surely tell you that it will further their shameful antics.
 
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