Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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There are passport controls at points of entry to the State the same as there are in every other EU country. Anyone with a vaild EU passport is allowed to enter. People who aren't EU citizens have join a separate queue where they are presumably required to provide further documentation. I am aware that Irish citizens entering the UK don't have to go through passport control, but just because the UK has a different process doesn't mean that Ireland doesn't uphold the CTA as you suggested.

As to your wider point, after Brexit the CTA arrangement between the UK and Ireland will continue despite the fact you are leaving the EU. There is no reason why it shouldn't; both governments are happy with it and the EU don't mind either. The less barriers between people the better.

Of course it does; the CTA provides for freedom of movement within the area but the Republic (unilaterally as it happened) decided to bring in passport controls at ports of entry from the UK.

The point about the future of the CTA is moot though, as you say it will continue and this is because of the incompetence of the British political leadership in these negotiations. My issue was that if Brexit happens then it really shouldn't - we will end up with two tiers of EU citizens when there is absolutely no justification for that being the case.
 
Of course it does; the CTA provides for freedom of movement within the area but the Republic (unilaterally as it happened) decided to bring in passport controls at ports of entry from the UK.

The point about the future of the CTA is moot though, as you say it will continue and this is because of the incompetence of the British political leadership in these negotiations. My issue was that if Brexit happens then it really shouldn't - we will end up with two tiers of EU citizens when there is absolutely no justification for that being the case.

That was already the case under standard Eu regs though before we pulled the trigger on Brexit , even with us in the EU we had a two tier system with those in the republic it’d be naive to claim otherwise.
 
That was already the case under standard Eu regs though before we pulled the trigger on Brexit , even with us in the EU we had a two tier system with those in the republic it’d be naive to claim otherwise.

Indeed, but under the EU it didn't matter because we both opted out of Schengen; the CTA was a discrete area and both the UK and Eire wanted it that way. With Brexit however we want to leave and the Republic wants to both keep what it has and insist on the rest of the EU having something else.

Once we decided to leave it (and what the GFA says about the border) should have been the main plank of our negotiating strategy, but May's insistence (at least up until around two weeks ago) on no single market and no freedom of movement meant it could not be used - and so we find ourselves in this absurd situation where there will be controls on one lot of EU citizens but not on another lot (or more likely, controls on EU citizens coming in from Paris on the Eurostar but not if they come in on "internal" flights from Dublin).
 
Indeed, but under the EU it didn't matter because we both opted out of Schengen; the CTA was a discrete area and both the UK and Eire wanted it that way. With Brexit however we want to leave and the Republic wants to both keep what it has and insist on the rest of the EU having something else.

Once we decided to leave it (and what the GFA says about the border) should have been the main plank of our negotiating strategy, but May's insistence (at least up until around two weeks ago) on no single market and no freedom of movement meant it could not be used - and so we find ourselves in this absurd situation where there will be controls on one lot of EU citizens but not on another lot (or more likely, controls on EU citizens coming in from Paris on the Eurostar but not if they come in on "internal" flights from Dublin).
That's grossly unfair. No we don't insist on the rest of the EU having something else. There is no lobbying from the Irish government that we must have a special arrangement with the UK which should be denied to other EU citizens. Of course we want the CTA to continue but so does the UK.

To get around your 'absurd situation', I don't see why passport controls can't be introduced for people arriving in the UK from Ireland. As I said earlier it happens in every other EU country and is no threat to the CTA.
 
According to The Experts' latest research*, liberal Remainers are 97.3% more likely to absorb only those studies which affirm their own narrow self-interest and prejudices, while ignoring repeated Expert warnings that gutting public services; slashing Council budgets by up to 70%; engineering cascading real estate and equities bubbles; stigmatising benefit recipients and punishing them with cruel and pointless administrative games; deliberately accelerating inequality; permitting rampant tax evasion by billionaires and multinational corporations; driving everyday people into thousands of Pounds of personal debt; and financialising every last aspect of human life would be an unmitigated political disaster certain to spawn unexpected catastrophies like Brexit.

fbd.jpg

* a university you can no longer afford

:)
 
According to The Experts' latest research*, liberal Remainers are 97.3% more likely to absorb only those studies which affirm their own narrow self-interest and prejudices, while ignoring repeated Expert warnings that gutting public services; slashing Council budgets by up to 70%; engineering cascading real estate and equities bubbles; stigmatising benefit recipients and punishing them with cruel and pointless administrative games; deliberately accelerating inequality; permitting rampant tax evasion by billionaires and multinational corporations; driving everyday people into thousands of Pounds of personal debt; and financialising every last aspect of human life would be an unmitigated political disaster certain to spawn unexpected catastrophies like Brexit.

fbd.jpg

* a university you can no longer afford

:)

None of which is down to the EU.

Here’s a theory. Vote Tory, watch the country turn to crap.
 
None of which is down to the EU.

Of course not. Or at least, not in Britain, anyhow. Unlike Greece or Italy, our wounds are entirely self-inflicted.

But it doesn't take a genius to see how a campaign against a distant, opaque, and malovelent authority serving elite interests would resonate after six years of Tory/Lib Dem vandalism.

If you spend six years kicking a dog, and then it suddenly bites you, you can't exactly blame the dog.

True, there has always been a small but vocal minority of drunk-on-nostalgia Little-England shire-Tory nationalists. But they were not the people who swung the referendum.

Two-and-half-years on, and some of us still don't seem ready to learn anything - led alone contemplate changing anything.

If you want a preview of how the second referendum was lost, look no further than Europhiles in London waving about Cambridge social science research, as though it will protect them from an anger that they still haven't bothered trying to understand.
 
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Of course not. Or at least, not in Britain, anyhow. Unlike Greece or Italy, our wounds are entirely self-inflicted.

But it doesn't take a genius to see how a campaign against a distant, opaque, and malovelent authority serving elite interests would resonate after six years of Tory/Lib Dem vandalism.

If you spend six years kicking a dog, and then it suddenly bites you, you can't exactly blame the dog.

True, there has always been a small but vocal minority of drunk-on-nostalgia Little-England shire-Tory nationalists. But they were not the people who swung the referendum.

Two-and-half-years on, and some of us still don't seem ready to learn anything - led alone contemplate changing anything.

If you want a preview of how the second referendum was lost, look no further than Europhiles in London waving about Cambridge social science research, as though it will protect them from an anger that they still haven't bothered trying to understand.
the dog hasn't bit anyone, it's chewed its own leg off
 
Gibraltar has been sorted and there will be an emergency EU summit later today:

"In her 'letter to the nation',Theresa May made the latest bid to win support, saying the deal would honour the referendum result, unite the country, and restore control over Britain's laws, money and borders." (lol)

Meanwhile...

"Speaking at her party's conference in Belfast, the DUP leader Arlene Foster said that if Mrs May wants the party's continued support, it means removing the Irish backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement. Mrs Foster said if the Irish protocol is not removed, the DUP would vote against the agreement in Westminster. "

What an absolute farce.
 
Is anyone really surprised how this evolving now? This is exactly how the big bad world is when you are on your own, you get owned by the bigger ones, just it's a bit more cordial because of the many relationships people had when were equal partners in the EU. At least no more Farage MEPs or even Tory MEPs supporting Orban regime, but still disappointing we are now just a passive recipient of the EU.
 
Dear Theresa May, Thank you for your letter. From the very first sentence to the very last, it is a tissue of revisionism, wilful misdirection, false equivalences, and downright lies. [former UK-EU negotiator]

You have a lot of bloody gall writing this to me.

That is, of course, assuming that you consider me, a UK Citizen living in the EU as qualifying as one of the addressees, one of your "nation", which I somewhat doubt. 2/

Evidence that you do has, I'm afraid to say, been scant, as has evidence that you consider EU citizens in the EU, or indeed any non UK citizen to be part of what you consider to be your nation. As I far as I am concerned though, they are. 3/

"The UK" did not vote to leave the EU. 52% of those who voted, or 37% of those who were eligible to vote did. Two of the four countries of the UK did not. EU Citizens in the UK were denied a vote, as were most UK citizens in the EU (despite your Party's earlier promises). 4/

Your apparently beloved "will of the people" (you might want to look up historical uses of this term) was not the will of the people Scotland or Northern Ireland, or, for that matter Gibraltar. 5/

It was not the will of the people most immediately impacted by this, who were deliberately and with malice aforethought denied an expression of their will. It was not the will of only a little under half of those who voted in the 2016 Referendum. 6/

You speak of your duty to "honour" the referendum result and secure a brighter future. The duty of the Prime Minister is indeed to act to secure a brighter future for the UK, by acting in it and its population's interest. You have not done that. 7/

For there to be a brighter future, which you identify as being your duty to provide, the Brexit deal would need to be better for the UK and the lives of its population than the one it has now. It is not, by any possible measure. 8/

And the referendum which you claim it is your duty to "honour", as if it were the solemn last wishes of a beloved relative, has now been shown beyond doubt to have been criminally conducted and manipulated, possibly with outside support from those hostile to the UK. 9/

This is, of course, in addition to individuals having to make their decision on the basis of outright, deliberate, proven lies being told to them by public figures who, at the time and since, have been holders of high office, including members of your Government.10/

We have, you'll note, only covered the first paragraph of your letter. The second one is no better, but I'll endeavour to deal with it more quickly. It is, in short, deeply insulting. 11/

You now, now, finally, after 2 years, bring up the interests of those who wish to remain in the EU. I genuinely do not know how you can bring yourself to. 12/

Since the day you took office, you have actively sought to ignore, belittle, undermine, brush-off, and insult both those who voted remain, and their views, concerns and advice. 13/

You and your Government have acted with and encouraged suspicion towards us. You have insulted us, calling us Citizens of Nowhere. You have dismissed advice and factual analysis by renowned experts and even your own government's departments on the grounds they are remainers. 14/

Don't start telling us now that this is in our interests. We know it is not. We have told you this, and explained why, and we have provided evidence it is not in our interests, or for that matter the interests of those who voted Leave. You have ignored us and our interests. 15/

We have control of our borders. It is impossible to enter the UK without having your passport checked, aside from across the NI/Ireland border, where checks will, thankfully, still not be made. 16/

Even excluding the EU, the UK has, rightly or wrongly, an immigration system based partly on where people come from. It is based on bilateral agreements between the UK and other countries, which the UK Government, and not the EU, have control of. 17/

Belarussian citizens do not have the same rights to enter and stay in the UK as, for example, Canadian citizens. This has nothing to do with the EU or Freedom of Movement. It is your Government's free choice. 18/

It is disingenuous and misleading to imply that ending Freedom of movement changes this, or allows it to be changed where it could not previously be. 19/

It is also disingenuous and misleading to frame the consequences of ending of Freedom of Movement solely as taking back control of borders. FoM is a reciprocal right, which UK citizens will also lose in the EU and EEA. 20/

You know this though, of course. It will have been in you briefing papers. It is in the TFEU. It is even on Wikipedia. Choose to frame it in this way shows little regard for either the rights of UK citizens, or for the need for them to be accurately and truthfully informed. 21/

I will not even go into the details of linking the (eventual) end of mandatory UK payments to the EU budget with being able to spend £394 million per week more on the NHS. You surely know this is a deliberate false connection. 22/

Not only has the Chancellor said that most of this will need to be funded from tax increases, but you could have made the decision to do it at any point. 23/

Every independent and credible analysis, including the Government's own, predicts a reduced tax take as a result of Brexit, reduced further by non-membership of the single market. This is crass, politics, intended to mislead. 24/

On taking back control of laws, it is extremely clear from the Withdrawal Agreement that, on every issue, the UK will face the stark choice between committing to aligning to EU rules, standards, and policies, or face damaging consequences. 25/

The choice between acquiescence and self-harm is not one of a person or country in control. It is a mere miasma of control. A false choice for a country that has backed itself into a corner. 26/

This was inevitable. it is not really your fault. It is a fact of Brexit. However, that you have not been honest with the population about this choice, and even now are not, reflects appallingly on the lack of regard you hold us in. 27/

UK will not be participate in any EU programmes, including those universally considered beneficial to the UK, unless the UK agrees to follow the rules of them, including unfettered access for EU institutions to those participating in them, & unless the EU decides to permit it.28/

We will pay the EU at least at-cost for our ability to do so, and we will have little-to no influence in shaping programmes essential to the prosperity of the UK in science, technology, education, the environment, and investment. 29/

As for whether the CAP or CFP do not work in our interests, the UKGov will need to replace the vast financial support from CAP to farmers, and it's likely that the essential market access the UK fish industry needs will only be available with continued EU access to UK waters. 30/

You claim that the deal also protects things we value. It does not. It is an outright lie that EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU will have their rights protected. 31/

EU citizens that are currently free to live and work without hindrance in the UK will have to pay for the privilege of applying to be permitted to continue to do so to a Home Office that has shown itself repeatedly to error-prone, and to deport first and question later. 32/

They will have their current right to leave and return to the UK, which is time-unlimited, limited. 33/

UK Citizens in the EU will also, in many cases, have to apply to be permitted to continue their lives as they are now, and will lose their current right to move freely between Member States 34/

(incidentally, we are all well aware that EU27 were well prepared to continue the right to FoM for UK Citizens currently in the EU in return for the UK agreeing to extend the right to return, and that you refused. Two lost rights for the price of one. 35/

It is abhorent that you would make these false claims having refused, along with you Cabinet Ministers, to even deign to meet the representatives of @The3Million & @BritishInEurope while the European Commission have been happy to meet both & others. For shame, Prime Minister. 36/

You and your ministers have repeatedly claimed that frictionless trade will be achieved. This is, as was always known, impossible outside of the Single Market and a Customs Union. Outside of a backstop, this deal rejects both. 37/

IA mere free Trade Area does not therefore protect the many jobs (skilled and unskilled, by the way, if you care) that rely on integrated supply chains. Any friction and delay is severely damaging, as companies, industry groups and experts have repeatedly informed you. 38/

Security cooperation will indeed continue, despite you having shown a moment of moral weakness by making a veiled threat to withdraw this in you Article 50 letter. It will however be harder and less effective in many ways. 39/

And in other things we value, the reach and influence of UK foreign policy will be severely weakened by the end of our participation as a decision maker in the CFSP. 40/

The UK's global influence has bee enormously amplified by this, as the EU's unified response to the Skripal case showed. This deal allows only for cooperation on such things as sanctions where the EU27 decides its interests, decided independently of the UK, coincide with ours.41/

Brexit, and the form of Brexit you have chosen, are directly against the expressed wishes of Scotland and the Scottish Government. Devolved Governments have been systematically ignored, undermined and kept out of this process. 42/

Even if you claim to know the interests of the the countries of the UK better than their own people and governments, your Government's own analysis shows that they will be economically damaged to a disproportionate degree by any Brexit, 43/

The same goes for the already worst-off regions of England. far from "working for them", this deal will harm the industries the most precarious rely on. And, as ever, the poorest in society will be harmed the most 44/

Whatever your letter of promise to Nissan said, if indeed you did actually write one, the future of huge employers such as them is at risk from this Brexit deal. 45/

It is not a deal for a brighter future. While attempting to sign new trade deals, the actual economic value of which are minimal in comparison to our current deal with our largest single, and closest trade partner, we'll have to negotiate deals to replace the EU ones we lose. 46/

Brexit has sucked up political attention and the resources of Government like a black hole suck in light. The negotiations of our future relationship with the EU will continue for years, and will do the same. 47/

The Political Declaration leaves all but the top-line questions (and some of those) extremely open, including some of the most controversial questions of benefit versus control. 48/

We know that whatever the eventual outcome, it will weaken, not strengthen our economy. I know you already know this, as you made the same point rather eloquently and forcefully before the referendum, and all evidence since points towards that. 49/

The idea that this Government will now, suddenly, build a country that works for everyone after systematically harming and demeaning the poorest and most vulnerable in society as a matter of policy is barely credible. 50/

No more credible is the idea that the poorest communities that this and the previous government in which you were a minister have ignored and underfunded for years are going to share justly in prosperity, even were that prosperity not illusionary. 51/

Prime Minister, Brexit, and specifically you and your Government's approach to it, have been the most divisive issue in the UK in living memory. Continuing on this appalling, harming path will not bring it together. 52/

Those who you have othered, denigrated and ignored will not get behind your deal, and neither will the Parliament that you have so doggedly looked to undermine and circumvent at every stage. 53/

If reconciliation was truly your goal, you would not have pursued this damn silly thing in this damn silly way. If the 'Precious Union' was really a priority, you would not have demonstrated the case for Scottish Independence, which must surely come, so perfectly. 54/

Having worked for over a decade for the UK's interests in the EU, I will not support a deal that such as this that acts directly against the UK and its population's interests. 55/

Brexit may happen on the 29th of March, but it need not. You yourself have said in Parliament that the choices are this Deal, No Deal, or No Brexit. 56/

For the reasons I have given, I and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of others will continue to work together with no regard for Party divides, and with every ounce of our beings, to ensure that the outcome is No Brexit. 57/

I do not expect you to read this reply to your letter. I gather listening is not your strong point. If it were, you would not have written your letter in the first place.

Yours Sincerely,

Steve Bullock.

Source:
 
Gibraltar has been sorted and there will be an emergency EU summit later today:

"In her 'letter to the nation',Theresa May made the latest bid to win support, saying the deal would honour the referendum result, unite the country, and restore control over Britain's laws, money and borders." (lol)

Meanwhile...

"Speaking at her party's conference in Belfast, the DUP leader Arlene Foster said that if Mrs May wants the party's continued support, it means removing the Irish backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement. Mrs Foster said if the Irish protocol is not removed, the DUP would vote against the agreement in Westminster. "

What an absolute farce.
tbf, the DUP are only needed for 'a being able to govern' Parliamentary Majority. I dont think they will collectively have that absolute power when it comes to the final vote as the strict 3 line whip party alliance will go out of the window when hardliners of both stripes jump their collective ships.

Watching over the week I've seen quotes from MPs linked with their allegiances like

Jane Smith, Lab, Remainer, Constituency voted Leave.
John Smith, Lab, Brexiter, Constituency voted Remain.
Jayne Smythe-Smith, Con, Remainer, Constituency voted Leave.
Jonty Smythe-Smith, Con, Brexiter, Constituency voted Remain.

Free vote or 3 line whip, the vote'll be all over the place. It'll be like trying to herd cats.
 
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