Current Affairs EU In or Out

[tsubaki]

Timing?

If Labour proposes this after Mays deal is voted down (mainly by the ERG in her own party) in October then this will seem like a very sensible option to way more Tories than those 10 or so. If only in that it takes the pressure of them having to actually make a decision.

Labour policy was always to have a meaningful vote in Parliament (ie: remain, leave on the May deal or leave on no deal) after the deal was announced; sadly it was voted down because it makes more sense than this "People's Vote" idiocy does.

I mean is there anyone, even Tubey, who would trust Cable / Mandelson / Blair / the Labour and Tory rebels to win that referendum? What would the question be? How would they prevent the outright cheating that Leave (official and unofficial) got up to?

 

[tsubaki]

In the sense that everything nowadays is 'soundbites', yes.

But he was no worse than the Remain side, with Carney's doom and gloom prediction, and the then Chancellor saying he would impose a swingeing budget if the vote was to leave.

How about some balance for once, ffs. Or is that not within the ambit of Remainers thinking...?

As has been pointed out about a thousand times to your ilk, we have not left yet.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

you posted an inflammatory quote, then said both sides did this, so what is the point of the quote?

One of many such front pages in Brexit supporting papers against anyone who dare go against the 'will of the people'.

Of all the charges you might put against those in favour of staying in the EU, nationalism seems pretty low down the list.

 

[Ruairi77]

For those who have not yet twigged it, my posting of that quote re patriotism was directed at the subject of joey's post, who rattled on about the difference between patriotism and nationalism, to take a swipe at others who did not share his views.

There's a very blurred line between patriotism and nationalism, both were manipulated by the leave campaign. Your Goering quote just explains how and why.

 

[Joey66]

The first principle of government should always be "first do no harm".

The Tories have cut council funding by up to 77% in some areas (!!!). It should be axiomatic at this point that policies like these are causing harm, and that they should be overturned immediately.

Then, after a measure of sanity is restored, the merits of programs like what you describe can be tested and compared. There are plenty of countries which started from far behind the UK, and which have since achieved far more, and we should seek to learn from them as well. Of course, shrewd government investment has been central to each and every one of them.

In other words: to improve running performance, one can debate the impact of diet, or weight-lifting regimes, or different models of trainers, but first, one needs to intervene in order to prevent the doctor from sawing the patient's legs off sans anesthetic.

Do no harm Austerity by the tories under Gideon did us harm........

 

[Joey66]

But if there is a second referendum - something is going to have to give.

Maybe if people felt that had another chance they would be open to revising their view (I'm not talking about the usual suspects on this thread) but more moderate voters - who were unsure in the last ref.

Having said that the real key would probably just to get the under 25's to vote in the same numbers as the over 70's.

Have the best of 3 votes sod the cost of it all........

 

[Old Blue 2]

you posted an inflammatory quote, then said both sides did this, so what is the point of the quote?

It wasn't an inflammatory post. It was pointing out that so-called patriotism is a phrase bandied about over a very long period of time.

If you can't see that, and seek to attack me over it, then I really do wonder...

 

[Old Blue 2]

There's a very blurred line between patriotism and nationalism, both were manipulated by the leave campaign. Your Goering quote just explains how and why.

Exactly, Ruairi. Can you explain the finer points of that to neil999, please.

 

[Old Blue 2]

As has been pointed out about a thousand times to your ilk, we have not left yet.

A clap for the man in the hat for that statement...

 

[hktoffee]

Is that right?

OK, take a trip to page 1,242 of this thread.
Look into post #18,617 by edge.
Therein you will find the following: "...the stupid, misinformed, racist, little Englanders won..."

Over to you, and also you, @roydo...

Mutzo Nutzo, Moomin etc. But these people won’t have the balls to admit it.

 

[neil999]

It wasn't an inflammatory post. It was pointing out that so-called patriotism is a phrase bandied about over a very long period of time.

If you can't see that, and seek to attack me over it, then I really do wonder...

I still dont really understand what point you were trying to make, im not trying to attack you as such, i just dont understand what it was meant to explain...not to worry

 

[Anders_Limpar]

Labour policy was always to have a meaningful vote in Parliament (ie: remain, leave on the May deal or leave on no deal) after the deal was announced; sadly it was voted down because it makes more sense than this "People's Vote" idiocy does.

I mean is there anyone, even Tubey, who would trust Cable / Mandelson / Blair / the Labour and Tory rebels to win that referendum? What would the question be? How would they prevent the outright cheating that Leave (official and unofficial) got up to?

Agree that it was a blow to not get the meaningful vote, from a remain perspective though, in order to stop the bus (as it were) and remain - I think a second referendum is the only realistic way of achieving this.

Parliament can't stop brexit - people would understandably go insane over this and Farage and the like would feed on it for a generation.

Don't get me wrong - if a ref does happen and stops the exit, these people will not go quietly into the night - but it would harder for them to rail against the 'will of the people'.

I also think that in a parliamentary democracy referendums are not a great way of solving things, particularly with open ended questions. However in this case I think it's the only real option.

I think a second ref would hopefully be clearer, as the terms of at least Mays deal would be open and secure. No deal is a hard sell to most people... It would have to be three options, May deal, no deal or remain. There are a few different ways this could work - First and second choice, or French style whereby you have a vote one week and the option that comes last is removed, for a second vote the following week with the top two.

This does lead to the next problem that you have pointed out - who the hell would lead such a campaign for remain?... I have genuinely no idea... Anyone got any?

 

[Old Blue 2]

I still dont really understand what point you were trying to make, im not trying to attack you as such, i just dont understand what it was meant to explain...not to worry

It was meant to point out, as I have explained further up, that the matter of patriotism/nationalism, whatever one wishes to call it, is nothing new, and has been used by politicians for a myriad of purposes over a very long period of time. What I posted was an attempt to really bring it into sharp focus. That's all.

 

[neil999]

It was meant to point out, as I have explained further up, that the matter of patriotism/nationalism, whatever one wishes to call it, is nothing new, and has been used by politicians for a myriad of purposes over a very long period of time. What I posted was an attempt to really bring it into sharp focus. That's all.

fair enough

 

[Moomin]

Mutzo Nutzo, Moomin etc. But these people won’t have the balls to admit it.

I voted remain, how did you vote @Mutzo Nutzo ??

Seems we are racists now.