Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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ah, right, couldn't agree more.
I actually think that the point that Brexiters have made that they joined a trading block and now find themselves members of a political block is fair enough. I can also see why places like the south of Italy and Greece on the front line of an immigration wave, may feel let down by other member states. I can see why there are fears of tax harmonization and an EU army. These are all valid concerns.
I think the problem seems to be that a lot of people who voted remain did so with their heads and a lot of those who voted leave did so with their hearts.
Unfortunately, it seems to be easier to persuade people to let their hearts rule their heads rather than the other way around. And that's why there is a mandate to leave but no plan for how to leave.

You are right regarding the trading block/political block.

With regard to your last sentence. I don't know whether you were in this thread from the start, or only joined it part-way through. 1,700+ pages means that if you did join part-way through there is no way you should trawl through everything. So what I say next has been posted before, many, many months ago. It became clear that post-23 June 2016, the PM Cameron had made no plans whatsoever as to how the country went forward with negotiations with the EU in the event of a vote to leave. Cameron just 'up sticks' and quit a few days later. One would have expected a responsible PM to have geared up the Whitehall civil service to make comprehensive preparations for the future in two ways: 1-the way forward with the EU in the event of a 'Remain' vote; and 2-the way forward with the EU in the event of a 'Leave' vote. It seems rather clear now that Cameron did not make, or have cause to be made, any future detailed preparations (certainly with regard to a leave victory) and just scarpered. For that reason, I cannot be critical of those who have been left with a very difficult scenario to deal with from scratch as a result of Cameron's non-preparedness for the future of the country.

As for the head/hearts matter that you raise, I think the following should be borne in mind. Cameron used £9.5 million of taxpayers money to produce a leaflet that was issued to every household in the UK, basically telling them to vote 'Remain'. I would suggest that, with the majority vote to leave, that 17 million+ have used their heads, not their hearts, when deciding what to do.
 
Again, you see, you miss the point. Many people who voted Remain just don’t like change and are frightened of standing on their own two feet, hence the younger people voted Remain. Many people who voted to leave actually have experience of trading with the rest of the world and are not afraid of doing their own thing, hence the older people voted leave. I would suggest that your head and hearts argument is the exact reverse of reality.......
in fairness to the younger voters Pete they easier to stick to what you know and they have been brought up with.
Dont forget they have been brought up and taught the manta of there liberal thinking tutors , much like i was within a catholic education system in the 60's 70 's only taught there version of the truth / society as they see , anything else is either bad or blasphemous ,to even think a different way is seen as bad.
 
there was a very good article on this recently by Dani Rodrik, the economist

it's a bit long, but well worth reading in full (this is just an excerpt)

The divided public heart

https://aeon.co/essays/how-do-elites-manage-to-hijack-voters-ideas-of-themselves

"Ideas and interests both matter for political change, and the two feed into one another. On the one hand, economic interests drive the kind of ideas that politicians put forward. As Kenneth Shepsle, professor of government at Harvard University, put it in 1985, ideas can be regarded as ‘hooks on which politicians hang their objectives and further their interests’. However, ideas also shape interests. This happens because they alter voter preferences and/or shift their worldviews ex-post, in both cases shifting rankings over policy.

Ideas not only constrain interests, they can also hurt the very interests that helped to shape them. For example, financial interests’ propagation of the virtues of austerity and budget balance might have had the unintended consequence of helping to trigger Brexit – the institutional change with possibly the biggest blow against London’s financial interests in more than half a century – and the rise of populists in the rest of Europe. The promotion of trade agreements as highly beneficial to the entire US contributed to the election of the anti-trade Trump. In both cases, misleading cleavages or memes generated by previous power-holders lent themselves to a backlash.

Despite the 2008 financial crisis and the recession, financial interests in London continued to back fiscal austerity. Indeed, these interests played a key role in the dissemination of the ‘budget balance’ meme and the gospel of fiscal austerity. The ‘budget balance’ meme acquired such influence, establishing itself as a kind of orthodoxy, that even Labour-leaning policymakers found it difficult to resist. However, the actual implementation of fiscal austerity by the government (especially in the post-financial crisis world) arguably set the stage for Brexit, which is likely to seriously damage London’s financial sector. Recent work by the economist Sascha Becker at the University of Warwick in the UK and co-authors suggests that those voters who suffered most from fiscal austerity likely tipped the balance in favour of Brexit. The fiscal-austerity meme had limited the government’s ability to manipulate (on the policy front) in the face of a recession, which combined with the fact that a populace suffering from the financial crisis was vulnerable to memes about national identity and ‘taking back control’ with the Brexit vote.

Similarly in the US, the Republican Party (and the wealthy business interests that back it) have found it politically useful to disseminate memes and narratives that made identity central (eg, the ‘Willie Horton/weekend passes for felons’ anti-Democrat ad campaign of 1988, or the ‘welfare queen’ meme used by Ronald Reagan since the 1970s). The stoking of racism was one way to maintain support of the white middle and lower-middle classes who would have likely been economically better off under Democratic administrations. But the salience of racial identity made the Party eventually vulnerable to a takeover by Trump, with very different ideas on trade and immigration than the Republican establishment. If carried out, Trump’s nativist policies would harm the business interests that have traditionally backed the Party.

In more than one way, ideational politics carries a risk of unintended consequences. Money and organisational resources help, but they do not mean that vested interests can craft policy narratives and appeal to identity in ways that produce guaranteed outcomes. As we are consistently reminded, political outsiders sometimes introduce memes that draw on and mobilise popular attitudes and upset moneyed interests. Though the term is used more often in reference to minorities, identity politics also shapes perceptions of self-interest and desired policy outcomes of the economic and political elite.

Reagan’s tax reform provides an illustration. Business elites originally opposed the personal income cuts that he advocated. They worried about the adverse fiscal implications. Over time, theories of supply-side economics moved them to place greater weight on the incentive and supply effects, and many turned into enthusiastic advocates of across-the-board tax cuts. In South Korea and Taiwan through the late 1950s, political leaders viewed their objectives largely in military and geopolitical terms. This dictated inward-looking economic policies. Once they redefined their strategy as building strength through exports, economic goals began to loom much larger and their policies changed dramatically. Any explanation that relies on the importance of vested interests raises the question of where powerful groups get their ideas about their interests, and if they have soundly assessed what those interests are in fact.

* * *

For those who view politics in terms of a narrow and static notion of interests, the electoral support for Trump, Brexit and other populist movements seems to pose a puzzle. It seems as if many poor people are voting against their self-interest. But the puzzle is more apparent than real. It is rooted in a habit of thinking of interests only in economic terms, and also as fixed. Trump’s former chief strategist Steve Bannon understood well that interests are malleable. With the right message and framing, Bannon noted in 2013, you could change the political calculus by shaping popular perception of self-interest: ‘Trade is No 100 on the [Republican] Party’s list. You can make it No 1. Immigration is No 10. We can make it No 2.’

What appears to be culture might be economics – the consequence of identity or worldview memes marketed by economic elites for their own self-interest. For example, Reagan used the imagery of a ‘welfare queen’ to attack unemployment benefits and the welfare state. So identity politics was being deployed by him to ensure that voters supported the Republican low-tax economic agenda. Similarly, what might look like economics might be shaped by cultural predispositions that provide voters with their interpretive frameworks – such as Merkel’s celebration of the ‘Swabian housewife’ when making the case for austerity.

Defeating autocratic and nativist political movements will likely require strategies based on both ideas and interests. As we have seen in recent elections, proposing policies that are better suited to the economic needs of middle- and lower-income voters will likely not be enough. Successful challengers will also need to come up with narratives that help to reshape peoples’ worldviews and identities."

Rodrik did pretty much foresee the challenges with globalisation ages ago. Even wrote a book about it (The Globalization Paradox).

in fairness to the younger voters Pete they easier to stick to what you know and they have been brought up with.
Dont forget they have been brought up and taught the manta of there liberal thinking tutors , much like i was within a catholic education system in the 60's 70 's only taught there version of the truth / society as they see , anything else is either bad or blasphemous ,to even think a different way is seen as bad.

:lol: Don't listen to Pete mate. He bangs out this mantra like leave voters are buccaneering Walter Raleigh types when it's based upon nothing but his own self-image and his mates down the pub. We're in the midst of tremendous technological, economic and social change at the moment, and pretty much every bit of evidence from attempts to understand the vote says that (broadly speaking) those who have managed to ride those changes okay voted to remain, and those who haven't voted to leave. Despite Pete's vision of a post-Brexit landscape of massively reduced regulations, it's incredibly unlikely that the majority of leave voters want more migration, less regulation and a more laissez faire society.
 
Rodrik did pretty much foresee the challenges with globalisation ages ago. Even wrote a book about it (The Globalization Paradox).



lol Don't listen to Pete mate. He bangs out this mantra like leave voters are buccaneering Walter Raleigh types when it's based upon nothing but his own self-image and his mates down the pub. We're in the midst of tremendous technological, economic and social change at the moment, and pretty much every bit of evidence from attempts to understand the vote says that (broadly speaking) those who have managed to ride those changes okay voted to remain, and those who haven't voted to leave. Despite Pete's vision of a post-Brexit landscape of massively reduced regulations, it's incredibly unlikely that the majority of leave voters want more migration, less regulation and a more laissez faire society.

Even with the excuse of taking your cycling ‘medications’, that’s a pretty poor attempt Bruce......
 


Kopite level delusion after seeing his fairytale Brexit Britain rose-tinted utopia crashing down around him.

Bell.

He's spot on he's been there to see it how the EU does not work it's Beurocratic top loaded talking shop if we don't fetch it down - in he future Italy and Spain will - we just subsidise it - they tell us how to spend our money get out of the EU first then abolish the House of Lords in its present format!
 
Bruce,
It has to be said, that for a person of intelligence, you do write utter, unsubstantiated, crap at times: "...pretty much every bit of evidence from attempts to understand the vote says that (broadly speaking) those who have managed to ride those changes okay voted to remain, and those who haven't voted to leave..."

I'll lob the legal tenet at you once again: HE WHO ASSERTS MUST PROVE!

There is absolutely NO proof to back up your above assertion. I've been riding changes since the 1950s, and I voted leave. A singular example, I know, but 17 million+ gives the lie to your example.

Time for another song, methinks...
 
Bruce,
It has to be said, that for a person of intelligence, you do write utter, unsubstantiated, crap at times: "...pretty much every bit of evidence from attempts to understand the vote says that (broadly speaking) those who have managed to ride those changes okay voted to remain, and those who haven't voted to leave..."

I'll lob the legal tenet at you once again: HE WHO ASSERTS MUST PROVE!

There is absolutely NO proof to back up your above assertion. I've been riding changes since the 1950s, and I voted leave. A singular example, I know, but 17 million+ gives the lie to your example.

Time for another song, methinks...


As with Pete, you confuse your own circumstances with that of everyone else. I wouldn't suggest that the studies are perfect, but they are the best we have to date. It seems sensible to me that we try and understand what happened and why it happened so we can move on with a degree of evidence behind us, and I haven't seen any actual evidence to the contrary (and to support your own perspective). Do by all means share some that doesn't rest upon your personal situation.
 
It’s not ‘end of’ though Joey. Eastern Europeans aren’t rushing over here to fill the roles due to the devaluation of the pound and the perceived anti foreign workers sentiment amongst the populous. If they’ve never paid minimum wage then why did they have no real Recruitment issue in recent years?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44230865
Opened the link up now - cash in hand probably been stopped , and a fruit glut coming as of a warm start to the summer - I see they advertise the jobs directly abroad to third rate EU countries ... why one might ask -WHY_?
no wonder our youth pickers dont get a chance , and oh they would not be so gullible on pay , and conditions of working practices something jezzas has been banging the drum about as a socialist in that I totally agree with him!
 
Bruce,
It has to be said, that for a person of intelligence, you do write utter, unsubstantiated, crap at times: "...pretty much every bit of evidence from attempts to understand the vote says that (broadly speaking) those who have managed to ride those changes okay voted to remain, and those who haven't voted to leave..."

I'll lob the legal tenet at you once again: HE WHO ASSERTS MUST PROVE!

There is absolutely NO proof to back up your above assertion. I've been riding changes since the 1950s, and I voted leave. A singular example, I know, but 17 million+ gives the lie to your example.

Time for another song, methinks...

He's been Googlisedlol
 
Opened the link up now - cash in hand probably been stopped , and a fruit glut coming as of a warm start to the summer - I see they advertise the jobs directly abroad to third rate EU countries ... why one might ask -WHY_?
no wonder our youth pickers dont get a chance , and oh they would not be so gullible on pay , and conditions of working practices something jezzas has been banging the drum about as a socialist in that I totally agree with him!

That's a poor comment to make Joe.
 
Opened the link up now - cash in hand probably been stopped , and a fruit glut coming as of a warm start to the summer - I see they advertise the jobs directly abroad to third rate EU countries ... why one might ask -WHY_?
no wonder our youth pickers dont get a chance , and oh they would not be so gullible on pay , and conditions of working practices something jezzas has been banging the drum about as a socialist in that I totally agree with him!

lets say they start hiring British pickers, and pay them a fair wage.

how much more are you willing to pay for your strawberries then? not much, I expect...
 
That's a poor comment to make Joe.
Bruce but that's what they are make hardly any contribution, and gain the benefits why is it allowed that the jobs are advertised there before the UK?....
it's not ethical or fair - I like to see a level playing field for all participants in the EU is that a poor comment?
 
Bruce but that's what they are make hardly any contribution, and gain the benefits why is it allowed that the jobs are advertised there before the UK?....
it's not ethical or fair - I like to see a level playing field for all participants in the EU is that a poor comment?

Would you say the same about parts of the UK that are poorer than others?
 
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