Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

You aren't reflective of the average leave voter though Pete. I know you'll probably say about polls being a very inexact science, and to an extent you're right, but in any attempt for Brexit to reflect the 'will of the people' who voted for it, there has to be some attempt to understand who leave voters are and what it was they were voting for. It's quite possible that within the leave cohort there are a variety of views on what an ideal Brexit is, and your own preference may be in a minority.

I could make a similar claim and say most Remain voters are selfish metropolitan elitists whose only concern is where do I get my next polish builder from or Romanian child minder.........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I could make a similar claim and say most Remain voters are selfish metropolitan elitists whose only concern is where do I get my next polish builder from or Romanian child minder.........

If the data suggested that then yes, but you can't just make stuff up

 

[peteblue]

If the data suggested that then yes, but you can't just make stuff up

Why not, everyone else does.......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Pete on average Leave voters were less educated, more likely to be out of work or operating in a low skilled field and less disposable income than Remain voters. They were also more likely to be indigenous British.

I think my point on the average Leave voter being less well-travelled is stating the obvious.

It's relevant as an experience of travel shapes the mind of the voter.

 

[peteblue]

Pete on average Leave voters were less educated, more likely to be out of work or operating in a low skilled field and less disposable income than Remain voters. They were also more likely to be indigenous British.

I think my point on the average Leave voter being less well-travelled is stating the obvious.

It's relevant as an experience of travel shapes the mind of the voter.

Well, continuing on my previous travelling post, I am above average educated, ran my own business having had a very successful career in large corporations, I am retired but work whenever I want at great expense in high technology fields, have a large disposable income, and I suppose I am not indigenous depending on timescales.

Going on holiday to spend a few weeks on a beach in Spain, or going winter skiing, is not my definition of being well travelled.

Experience of travelling involves living and working with the people in order to shape the mind......

Leave voters come in all shapes and sizes.......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, continuing on my previous travelling post, I am above average educated, ran my own business having had a very successful career in large corporations, I am retired but work whenever I want at great expense in high technology fields, have a large disposable income, and I suppose I am not indigenous depending on timescales.

Going on holiday to spend a few weeks on a beach in Spain, or going winter skiing, is not my definition of being well travelled.

Experience of travelling involves living and working with the people in order to shape the mind......

Leave voters come in all shapes and sizes.......

With respect though Pete, that's not the point. If you're trying to understand the 'will of the people', you surely have to know them as well as possible? You must appreciate that it's impossible to know each individual leave voter's intentions with the vote, nor is it possible to implement what every single leave voter desired with their vote as there is too much diversity within that electorate. All the politicians can do is try to understand who the leave voters are and what they wanted to the best of their ability (which will almost certainly involve sampling), and then try and implement the will of the majority of them.

As Charlie says, no attempt to sample the leave vote to date has found the majority of leave voters to be like yourself (or maybe even like OldBlue).

 

[Charlie Sweet]

The whole of Brexit appears like watching a train crash in slow motion.

It seems clear that the UK or unwilling or unable to agree anything substantive with the EU. We will default to a hard Brexit with an Irish border and WTO trade rules.

Pretty quickly you'll have the thousands of companies, and millions of people, that are negatively affected clamouring for another referendum.

At some point before that doesn't common sense have to come into it?!?!

 

[bluestevon]

Well, continuing on my previous travelling post, I am above average educated, ran my own business having had a very successful career in large corporations, I am retired but work whenever I want at great expense in high technology fields, have a large disposable income, and I suppose I am not indigenous depending on timescales.

Going on holiday to spend a few weeks on a beach in Spain, or going winter skiing, is not my definition of being well travelled.

Experience of travelling involves living and working with the people in order to shape the mind......

Leave voters come in all shapes and sizes.......

Think you're missing the key words in his post, 'on average'.

There's obviously no cut and dried template that people in either side hit all the points on. But on average, demographics of either side show noticeable differences in various areas, thus allowing broad assumptions to be made by both sides about the other.

For example if you meet someone who strongly believes in a well funded welfare state, and you predicted which way he'd voted, then saying remain, more often than not you'd be correct.

Similarly if you met someone who thought all immigrants should be deported, and you said he had voted leave, you'd more likely than not also be correct on that prediction.

Does it mean all on either side would have them opinions, nope, but a large section will do.

And as I believe a leave voter you are, then it's only honest to face up to the fact that whatever your own reasons where, a large proportion of people who agree with what you wanted, did so for reasons maybe you would find abhorrent.

 

[peteblue]

Think you're missing the key words in his post, 'on average'.

There's obviously no cut and dried template that people in either side hit all the points on. But on average, demographics of either side show noticeable differences in various areas, thus allowing broad assumptions to be made by both sides about the other.

For example if you meet someone who strongly believes in a well funded welfare state, and you predicted which way he'd voted, then saying remain, more often than not you'd be correct.

Similarly if you met someone who thought all immigrants should be deported, and you said he had voted leave, you'd more likely than not also be correct on that prediction.

Does it mean all on either side would have them opinions, nope, but a large section will do.

And as I believe a leave voter you are, then it's only honest to face up to the fact that whatever your own reasons where, a large proportion of people who agree with what you wanted, did so for reasons maybe you would find abhorrent.

Perhaps, but I find it difficult to believe the ‘large proportion’, some absolutely......

 

[peteblue]

The whole of Brexit appears like watching a train crash in slow motion.

It seems clear that the UK or unwilling or unable to agree anything substantive with the EU. We will default to a hard Brexit with an Irish border and WTO trade rules.

Pretty quickly you'll have the thousands of companies, and millions of people, that are negatively affected clamouring for another referendum.

At some point before that doesn't common sense have to come into it?!?!

Wow, that is some panicking. The economy is going along nicely, shouldn’t we just wait and see what actually happens....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Perhaps, but I find it difficult to believe the ‘large proportion’, some absolutely......

Page 7 of this Pete

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/NatCen_Brexplanations-report-FINAL-WEB2.pdf

Those most likely to
vote Leave were:
•Those with no formal education qualifications (78%) or whose highest qualifications are CSEs or O-levels (61%)
•Those with an income of less than £1,200 per month (66%)
•Those in social housing provided by a local authority (70%) or housing association (68%)

For instance, among people with a degree, 26% of them voted to leave. You are one of those 26%, but that doesn't mean you're representative of the wider 'leave' voting block.

 

[peteblue]

With respect though Pete, that's not the point. If you're trying to understand the 'will of the people', you surely have to know them as well as possible? You must appreciate that it's impossible to know each individual leave voter's intentions with the vote, nor is it possible to implement what every single leave voter desired with their vote as there is too much diversity within that electorate. All the politicians can do is try to understand who the leave voters are and what they wanted to the best of their ability (which will almost certainly involve sampling), and then try and implement the will of the majority of them.

As Charlie says, no attempt to sample the leave vote to date has found the majority of leave voters to be like yourself (or maybe even like OldBlue).

Everyone is different and has different reasons to leave. Similarly every Remain voter will have done so for different reasons. Some may have thought that they wanted to belong to a USE, some may have thought they would lose financially, some may just be frightened of dealing with the world. But whatever the reasons we are all different and I find it rather insulting to throw all Leavers into the same pot and then attach insulting descriptors.......

 

[bluestevon]

Perhaps, but I find it difficult to believe the ‘large proportion’, some absolutely......

Think you'd be surprised mate, there was a clear reason why the or teams and marketing for both campaigns targeted certain areas of each other and why the media coverage was centred around certain issues.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Everyone is different and has different reasons to leave. Similarly every Remain voter will have done so for different reasons. Some may have thought that they wanted to belong to a USE, some may have thought they would lose financially, some may just be frightened of dealing with the world. But whatever the reasons we are all different and I find it rather insulting to throw all Leavers into the same pot and then attach insulting descriptors.......

That is what democracy is though isn't it? If we're being anal about it, all 60 million or so people living in Britain are different, yet politics is imposed upon the many based upon whomever happens to be most popular. The decision to leave the EU is putting remainers in the same pot as leavers in that sense, so it surely stands to reason that if the government are to enact the 'will of the people' then they need to understand what the majority of leavers want from Brexit.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Incidentally, I would have expected a similar process to occur had the vote swung the other way. It would have triggered a lot of debate about the merits and otherwise of EU membership, and the views of those wishing to leave, together with those wishing to remain would hopefully have gone into any attempts to reform the EU from within.