Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

I agree with you there Joe. Especially those first 4 paragraphs. Spot on.

 

[Joey66]

I agree with you there Joe. Especially those first 4 paragraphs. Spot on.

Is that sarcasm Bruce?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Probably mate. I've lost the ability to tell.

 

[peteblue]

Thanks and I appreciate the reasoned reply.

If your due diligence identified the deal was going to be with a "bad company" - would you still be advocating that merger to your boss?

Due diligence is supposed to determine if you are getting what you expected for the price. My point however is that no matter what you then believe, other unknown issues may present themselves afterwards, good or bad.

I can actually identify somewhat with the political/sovereign state line of argument. It didn't/doesn't do enough for me to back a Leave vote but I can see some merit in it (especially for native English people).

Your comment though - that you didn't vote Leave on economic grounds - surely needs ongoing review? If the economic impact will be terrible then surely that must cause you to at least re-consider?

The EU accounts for about 8% of our GDP, even in a nightmare scenario where the U.K. and EU mutually destruct, which will not happen, the worst case is an 8% reduction. The U.K. has a growing economy across most sectors and even if we fell off a cliff edge we would pull it back in a few years.

"however it is an absolute fact that once away from the EU the U.K. will have far more freedom to determine future trade agreements in expanding markets and our companies will be liberated from the constricting laws from the EU...."

There's nothing out there to support this statement though. We will get a worse deal with the EU than we have now - that, I believe, is a fact. So any net analysis is starting off on the back foot.

Of course there is. I’m talking about the RoW and you keep harping back to the EU. Of course we will have a slightly worse deal with the EU, as they will with the U.K., unless everyone tries for a win/win. If we have to take a hit for a couple of years then so be it, ultimately we will be in a better position.

Dealing with the rest of the world has its issues. Do we really want completely free trade with the US? Do we want their cheap chlorinated chickens hammering our farmers? Or what about unlimited cheap Chinese imports where their labour laws are such that we can never compete?

There will never be completely free trade, we only have it with the EU providing we allow all their citizens free access to the U.K. and we pay them Billions every year, remember the 4 ‘freedoms’.

The UK financial services sector alone has major issues in a WTO environment.

Of course it will be different if we have to go to WTO, but this is how the rest of the world trades anyway, and how we trade already with the RoW. U.K. Companies already know how to do this. However EU companies will have a much harder time accessing U.K. financial services.

Lastly you quoted "restricting laws from the EU". Which laws are these? I'm genuinely interested here and not trying to score points.

In terms of restricting laws there will be a whole raft for each sector of the economy. Fishing has its ‘throw fish back into the sea’ issue, electrical goods may apply standards that the Germans may want but are not what the RoW want, think lightbulbs and hoovers etc etc. All of these laws and standards may be for the good, but not all, and not in a one size fits all scenario. Having technological and bureaucratic freedom and the ability to form laws and standards that fit our economy is a big benefit.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Where do you get that 8% figure from Pete? It's nice that objection to the freedom of movement is finally being aired btw.

 

[Joey66]

Probably mate. I've lost the ability to tell.

The geography of Switzerland encompasses the geographical features of Switzerland, a mountainous and landlocked country located in Western and Central Europe. It is surrounded by 5 countries: Austria and Liechtenstein to the east,France to the west, Italy to the south and Germany to the north.
There's FIVE EU countries that trade with a soft border with Switzerland, and controlled immigration so why are the EU questioning an Irish problem - hard border etc etc -
Before the EU the Southern Irish before the troubles had different currencies - the punt, and a soft border was in place then - the troubles have hopefully been sorted - time has been a healer may it stay that way - the EU need to respect this problem!

 

[Joey66]

Probably mate. I've lost the ability to tell.

Use Google then as always!lol

 

[Charlie Sweet]

The geography of Switzerland encompasses the geographical features of Switzerland, a mountainous and landlocked country located in Western and Central Europe. It is surrounded by 5 countries: Austria and Liechtenstein to the east,France to the west, Italy to the south and Germany to the north.
There's FIVE EU countries that trade with a soft border with Switzerland, and controlled immigration so why are the EU questioning an Irish problem - hard border etc etc -
Before the EU the Southern Irish before the troubles had different currencies - the punt, and a soft border was in place then - the troubles have hopefully been sorted - time has been a healer may it stay that way - the EU need to respect this problem!

Don't ever change Joey. Please don't ever change!

I love the fact you've copied and pasted a bit of random info on Switzerland to make your point. Brilliant.

For the third time today - Switzerland is in the EFTA so its relationship with the rest of the EU is different to that which would be the case for the UK and the EU. Theresa May has already ruled out an EFTA model. Any EU citizen can travel to Switzerland. It does not control its borders in the way that the looney right wingers in the UK want to.

But even with that Switzerland model - which is better than we're looking at with the UK at the moment - there are still border controls, checks on vehicles and long queues. None of that is allowable either in the Good Friday Agreement or as set out in Paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December agreement signed by the UK and the EU.

There can be no border of any kind in Ireland that is different to what is there now. The Northern Irish people voted against Brexit and all of the counties that are actually near the border voted even more significantly against Brexit. Who on earth are you to tell them that a border isn't an issue?

 

[ToffeeTim]

Don't ever change Joey. Please don't ever change!

I love the fact you've copied and pasted a bit of random info on Switzerland to make your point. Brilliant.

For the third time today - Switzerland is in the EFTA so its relationship with the rest of the EU is different to that which would be the case for the UK and the EU. Theresa May has already ruled out an EFTA model. Any EU citizen can travel to Switzerland. It does not control its borders in the way that the looney right wingers in the UK want to.

But even with that Switzerland model - which is better than we're looking at with the UK at the moment - there are still border controls, checks on vehicles and long queues. None of that is allowable either in the Good Friday Agreement or as set out in Paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December agreement signed by the UK and the EU.

There can be no border of any kind in Ireland that is different to what is there now. The Northern Irish people voted against Brexit and all of the counties that are actually near the border voted even more significantly against Brexit. Who on earth are you to tell them that a border isn't an issue?

The GFA is no business whatsoever of Europe. It was agreed bilaterally between UK and ROI. I would stress that the border does already exist legally tho so the idea that there can be no border is absurd. There already is. It's essentially customs and security that are the issues.

I've already made my point clear on a (visible physical, tangible) border. There won't be one unless Europe create one. Britain dont want customs. But the Jean Claude and Co gravy train wont fund itself so they will be desperate to get money off britain one way or anorher. Theresa May is content to live with the potential issues you raised as the customs and security checkpoints are a massive headache to her that she will want nothing to do with.

 

[Joey66]

Don't ever change Joey. Please don't ever change!

I love the fact you've copied and pasted a bit of random info on Switzerland to make your point. Brilliant.

For the third time today - Switzerland is in the EFTA so its relationship with the rest of the EU is different to that which would be the case for the UK and the EU. Theresa May has already ruled out an EFTA model. Any EU citizen can travel to Switzerland. It does not control its borders in the way that the looney right wingers in the UK want to.

But even with that Switzerland model - which is better than we're looking at with the UK at the moment - there are still border controls, checks on vehicles and long queues. None of that is allowable either in the Good Friday Agreement or as set out in Paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December agreement signed by the UK and the EU.

There can be no border of any kind in Ireland that is different to what is there now. The Northern Irish people voted against Brexit and all of the counties that are actually near the border voted even more significantly against Brexit. Who on earth are you to tell them that a border isn't an issue?

It was never an issue before the troubles - that is hopeful peaceful now - people like you head in the sand cannot see a solution like the EU you just like throwing spanners in the works both countries in Ireland deal with the UK than the Eu in trade so. quoting your jargon is like an ostrich with its head in the sand new agreements can be forged - just a typical
Remoaners stance please change and accrept UK democrocy!

 

[roydo]

people like you head in the sand cannot see a solution

Go ahead Joe, enlighten us. What would be your solution that will be acceptable to folk in NI and ROI, the EU, and the UK Government? Just the issue of the border. Nothing else. That can wait.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

The GFA is no business whatsoever of Europe. It was agreed bilaterally between UK and ROI. I would stress that the border does already exist legally tho so the idea that there can be no border is absurd. There already is. It's essentially customs and security that are the issues.

I've already made my point clear on a (visible physical, tangible) border. There won't be one unless Europe create one. Britain dont want customs. But the Jean Claude and Co gravy train wont fund itself so they will be desperate to get money off britain one way or anorher. Theresa May is content to live with the potential issues you raised as the customs and security checkpoints are a massive headache to her that she will want nothing to do with.

Of course the GFA is of massive relevance to the EU! It's a key international treaty in its own right and of fundamental importance to the Republic. So if Brexit is threatening to run a coach and horses through it then of course the EU will put it's protection at the centre of things. Ireland is a member of the EU so why would it be any different?

The GFA deals with the border. It has a unique status different to probably 99.9% of borders around the world. It will disappear on the will of the people of Northern Ireland and secondly confirms Irish and EU citizenship (for those that want it) on the population of the north - so it's hardly any old regular border is it?

This idea though that there won't be any border unless the EU wants one is utter nonsense. It's the UK that have caused this mess with the nonsensical Referendum vote. If there are different trade tariffs and regulations - not to mention an open border to allow unlimited migration from the EU into the UK (from the Republic into Northern Ireland) - you think that can hold?

But this is already covered in paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December agreement. Brexit will not threaten the GFA and promises full alignment with the EU. So what's the debate about?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

It was never an issue before the troubles - that is hopeful peaceful now - people like you head in the sand cannot see a solution like the EU you just like throwing spanners in the works both countries in Ireland deal with the UK than the Eu in trade so. quoting your jargon is like an ostrich with its head in the sand new agreements can be forged - just a typical
Remoaners stance please change and accrept UK democrocy!

Joe the thing with an internet forum mate is that all this discussion is there in black and white for everyone to see.

You quoted Switzerland as a solution - I explained why it's very different and not something the UK would accept in any case (Theresa May's own words).

I'm not being a troublesome remoaner for no reason here - Brexit could threaten the Good Friday Peace Agreement - something which matters hugely to me. So it's hardly a surprise I take an interest.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Of course the GFA is of massive relevance to the EU! It's a key international treaty in its own right and of fundamental importance to the Republic. So if Brexit is threatening to run a coach and horses through it then of course the EU will put it's protection at the centre of things. Ireland is a member of the EU so why would it be any different?

The GFA deals with the border. It has a unique status different to probably 99.9% of borders around the world. It will disappear on the will of the people of Northern Ireland and secondly confirms Irish and EU citizenship (for those that want it) on the population of the north - so it's hardly any old regular border is it?

This idea though that there won't be any border unless the EU wants one is utter nonsense. It's the UK that have caused this mess with the nonsensical Referendum vote. If there are different trade tariffs and regulations - not to mention an open border to allow unlimited migration from the EU into the UK (from the Republic into Northern Ireland) - you think that can hold?

But this is already covered in paragraphs 49 and 50 of the December agreement. Brexit will not threaten the GFA and promises full alignment with the EU. So what's the debate about?

The ireland Act 1947 granting freedom of travel, employment, voting amd citizenship rights between Britain and Ireland clearly predates EU legislation.

The GFA doesn't have anything to do with the border. It is about parity of esteem. And says there will be no change of Northern Irelands constitutional position until over 50% vote for unity in a referendum. It reinforced the fact NI is part of the UK if anything, albeit subject to change under the terms given.

I find it remarkable that the Irish people actually listen to the EU after the Lisbon treaty debacle. Europe trampled all over Irish democracy by threatening them and forcing them to revote. Yet now they are allowing tjemselves to be manipulated by those who bullied them. But i digress....

Thankfully the unelected EU sham we have currently at Brussels is on its knees and a new relationship will now be built based on trade and not the agendas of unelected elites.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Joe the thing with an internet forum mate is that all this discussion is there in black and white for everyone to see.

You quoted Switzerland as a solution - I explained why it's very different and not something the UK would accept in any case (Theresa May's own words).

I'm not being a troublesome remoaner for no reason here - Brexit could threaten the Good Friday Peace Agreement - something which matters hugely to me. So it's hardly a surprise I take an interest.

Oh no not this threatening the peace tripe again.

The peace will only be threatened if terrorists use it as an excuse to create terror. Murder is unjustifiable and I won't be pandering to excuses.