Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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If we had a second vote I believe that the Leave vote would be even greater.....

In that case you won't mind if we have one! ;)

All I said from the start after remain lost, was that when we got an actual deal sorted, then put it back to the public. Not that you would tell anyone you would have a second referendum until after we have a deal set in stone else the EU will screw us over knowing we would more likely vote remain.

I may even vote to leave this time if the deal shows we will be better off. (Although i doubt that will be the case) Least everyone will know the actual facts to make a reasoned decision one way or another.
 
A.
...given all the nasty rhetoric that has emanated from EU officials since the Referendum decision. They appear to look upon us a something on the soles of their shoes. Their malice is directed at us in spite, because they will lose a large chunk of dosh that they would rather have (obviously!). Realistically, I believe they don't give a toss about the UK, they just want our financial contribution to continue ad infinitum...

And our defence capability.....
 
In that case you won't mind if we have one! ;)

All I said from the start after remain lost, was that when we got an actual deal sorted, then put it back to the public. Not that you would tell anyone you would have a second referendum until after we have a deal set in stone else the EU will screw us over knowing we would more likely vote remain.

I may even vote to leave this time if the deal shows we will be better off. (Although i doubt that will be the case) Least everyone will know the actual facts to make a reasoned decision one way or another.

No one will know the facts for several years, not until new trade deals are in place and working and how the new relationship with the EU is running......
 
No one will know the facts for several years, not until new trade deals are in place and working and how the new relationship with the EU is running......

Very true, but we would have infinitely more to go on than what we had last time around.

For what it's worth I personally don't think there will be a second referendum though.
 
VB was an esteemed political and constitutional commentator even when I studied politics over thirty years ago. He speaks, you listen:

A second Brexit referendum? It’s looking more likely by the day
Vernon Bogdanor
The election changed everything and now deadlock in parliament looms. The final deal may have to go back to the people

• Vernon Bogdanor is professor of government at King’s College London
Comments
Thursday 3 August 2017


Negotiations on Britain’s withdrawal from the EU have now begun in earnest. They are required, according to article 50, to “take account of the framework” for Britain’s “future relationship with the union”. But what is that future relationship to be?

Economically, the EU comprises three elements: a free trade area; a customs union (an area with a common trade policy and a common tariff); and an internal market in which non-tariff barriers to trade (regulations, standards and the like) are harmonised and, indeed, reduced.

Theresa May has declared that the UK will not seek to remain in the single market or the customs union. Campaigning for remain in 2016, she said of the single market: “We would have to make concessions in order to access it; these concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations over which we would have no say, making financial contributions just as we do now, accepting free movement rules just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined.”

Both membership of the single market and a customs agreement would require us to accept much EU legislation without being able to help formulate it – and not just existing legislation, but any legislation the EU chooses to enact in future. We would become, in effect, a satellite of the EU, relying on the European commission or other member states to defend our interests. Such an outcome – regulation without representation – proved unacceptable to Americans in the 18th century. It would probably prove equally unacceptable to the British people in the 21st.

So, when May said that Brexit means Brexit, she was merely drawing out the constitutional logic of the referendum decision. For there is no logic to a “soft” Brexit – a form of withdrawal that mimics EU membership, but without the influence that comes from membership. The ultimate choice we face is either “hard” Brexit or remain.

Britain will be negotiating, therefore, for a free trade agreement in a “hard” Brexit. But, sadly, our negotiating position may not be very powerful. If one leaves a tennis club because one does not wish to pay the subscription and does not like the rules yet still wishes to play tennis, one’s leverage is not strong. One is a supplicant.

In addition, a trade agreement would probably have to be ratified unanimously by the European council, by a majority in the European parliament, and 27 national and 11 regional parliaments – and we are up against a two-year time limit. There is, apparently, a Japanese saying to the effect that the shorter the time limit, the deeper your wallet needs to be.

Some British politicians suffer from an imperial reflex, however. For them, Britain lies at the centre of the world. We only have to state our aims and other countries will be generous enough to help us achieve them. Last year Brexiteers argued that Britain should leave an EU composed of ill-intentioned foreigners whose interests were in conflict with its own. This year it has been magically transformed into a charitable institution that can be relied on to safeguard our interests.

But now we have had the general election. May called it to resolve the European question and strengthen her negotiating hand. Had she gained the landslide she hoped for, the referendum result would have been confirmed and Brexit would be assured. But the election re-opens the issue of Europe – for four reasons.

First, there is probably no Commons majority for May’s version of Brexit. Indeed, there is probably a stronger representation of remain MPs in parliament today than before the election.

Second, Labour’s electoral gains raise the question of whether the decision in the 2016 referendum is final: for, although Labour was not a remain party this year, the British Election Study found that the party’s “soft Brexit” policy played a large part in its substantial gain in votes. In constituencies where over 55% voted remain, the party achieved a swing of around 7%. The election was the revenge of the remainers.


‘When he thought he would lose, Nigel Farage [above] said a further referendum would be needed.’ Photograph: Neil Hall/Reuters
Third, the election intensifies internal divisions in both major parties. If the eventual deal is too “hard”, Conservative remainers may join with their opposition counterparts to defeat it; if too “soft”, Tory Eurosceptics could ensure its rejection. There may be no majority for any of the forms of Brexit on offer, with the Commons deadlocked.

Fourth, the House of Lords – in which the pro-remain Liberal Democrats and crossbenchers hold the balance of power, and the proportion of remainers is probably even higher than in the Commons – will feel emboldened to reject a hard Brexit, arguing that a minority government has no mandate for it.

With a deadlocked parliament, the possibility of an unfavourable deal and both parties so deeply divided on Europe, it may start to appear that the only way out of the impasse is a second referendum in which the government’s deal is put it to the people for legitimation.

That appears unlikely at the moment. Yet a referendum on Europe appeared even more unlikely when, in 1971, Tony Benn proposed it to Labour’s national executive but failed to find a seconder. James Callaghan presciently declared that for a divided party, the referendum might well prove a “rubber life raft into which the whole party may one day have to climb”. The Conservatives too may come eventually need that life raft.

Nigel Farage said that a further referendum would be needed: there is no doubt that Brexiteers would have continued their campaign to take Britain out of the EU and they would have had every democratic right to do so. But so equally do those who have doubts about the decision.

Brexit after all raises fundamental, indeed existential, issues for the future of the country. That is why the final deal needs the consent not only of parliament, but of a sovereign people.



• Vernon Bogdanor is professor of government at King’s College London. This article is based on his Gresham lecture delivered in June.
 
British are not classed as non EU. They are quite correctly classed as non Schengen. This would have been exactly the same had we voted to remain. Ireland are also non Schengen and have the same difficulties.......
I bow to your greater knowledge.
The fact still remains that since June this year and I can vouch for this, we were herded back through non EU control gates in Malta.
My original point is that the self proclaimed paragons of efficiency France and Germany to name but two, should staff up the busier gates and stop being deliberately obstructive.
 
VB was an esteemed political and constitutional commentator even when I studied politics over thirty years ago. He speaks, you listen:

A second Brexit referendum? It’s looking more likely by the day
Vernon Bogdanor
The election changed everything and now deadlock in parliament looms. The final deal may have to go back to the people

• Vernon Bogdanor is professor of government at King’s College London
Comments
Thursday 3 August 2017


Negotiations on Britain’s withdrawal from the EU have now begun in earnest. They are required, according to article 50, to “take account of the framework” for Britain’s “future relationship with the union”. But what is that future relationship to be?

Economically, the EU comprises three elements: a free trade area; a customs union (an area with a common trade policy and a common tariff); and an internal market in which non-tariff barriers to trade (regulations, standards and the like) are harmonised and, indeed, reduced.

Theresa May has declared that the UK will not seek to remain in the single market or the customs union. Campaigning for remain in 2016, she said of the single market: “We would have to make concessions in order to access it; these concessions could well be about accepting EU regulations over which we would have no say, making financial contributions just as we do now, accepting free movement rules just as we do now, or quite possibly all three combined.”

Both membership of the single market and a customs agreement would require us to accept much EU legislation without being able to help formulate it – and not just existing legislation, but any legislation the EU chooses to enact in future. We would become, in effect, a satellite of the EU, relying on the European commission or other member states to defend our interests. Such an outcome – regulation without representation – proved unacceptable to Americans in the 18th century. It would probably prove equally unacceptable to the British people in the 21st.

So, when May said that Brexit means Brexit, she was merely drawing out the constitutional logic of the referendum decision. For there is no logic to a “soft” Brexit – a form of withdrawal that mimics EU membership, but without the influence that comes from membership. The ultimate choice we face is either “hard” Brexit or remain.

Britain will be negotiating, therefore, for a free trade agreement in a “hard” Brexit. But, sadly, our negotiating position may not be very powerful. If one leaves a tennis club because one does not wish to pay the subscription and does not like the rules yet still wishes to play tennis, one’s leverage is not strong. One is a supplicant.

In addition, a trade agreement would probably have to be ratified unanimously by the European council, by a majority in the European parliament, and 27 national and 11 regional parliaments – and we are up against a two-year time limit. There is, apparently, a Japanese saying to the effect that the shorter the time limit, the deeper your wallet needs to be.

Some British politicians suffer from an imperial reflex, however. For them, Britain lies at the centre of the world. We only have to state our aims and other countries will be generous enough to help us achieve them. Last year Brexiteers argued that Britain should leave an EU composed of ill-intentioned foreigners whose interests were in conflict with its own. This year it has been magically transformed into a charitable institution that can be relied on to safeguard our interests.

But now we have had the general election. May called it to resolve the European question and strengthen her negotiating hand. Had she gained the landslide she hoped for, the referendum result would have been confirmed and Brexit would be assured. But the election re-opens the issue of Europe – for four reasons.

First, there is probably no Commons majority for May’s version of Brexit. Indeed, there is probably a stronger representation of remain MPs in parliament today than before the election.

Second, Labour’s electoral gains raise the question of whether the decision in the 2016 referendum is final: for, although Labour was not a remain party this year, the British Election Study found that the party’s “soft Brexit” policy played a large part in its substantial gain in votes. In constituencies where over 55% voted remain, the party achieved a swing of around 7%. The election was the revenge of the remainers.


‘When he thought he would lose, Nigel Farage [above] said a further referendum would be needed.’ Photograph: Neil Hall/Reuters
Third, the election intensifies internal divisions in both major parties. If the eventual deal is too “hard”, Conservative remainers may join with their opposition counterparts to defeat it; if too “soft”, Tory Eurosceptics could ensure its rejection. There may be no majority for any of the forms of Brexit on offer, with the Commons deadlocked.

Fourth, the House of Lords – in which the pro-remain Liberal Democrats and crossbenchers hold the balance of power, and the proportion of remainers is probably even higher than in the Commons – will feel emboldened to reject a hard Brexit, arguing that a minority government has no mandate for it.

With a deadlocked parliament, the possibility of an unfavourable deal and both parties so deeply divided on Europe, it may start to appear that the only way out of the impasse is a second referendum in which the government’s deal is put it to the people for legitimation.

That appears unlikely at the moment. Yet a referendum on Europe appeared even more unlikely when, in 1971, Tony Benn proposed it to Labour’s national executive but failed to find a seconder. James Callaghan presciently declared that for a divided party, the referendum might well prove a “rubber life raft into which the whole party may one day have to climb”. The Conservatives too may come eventually need that life raft.

Nigel Farage said that a further referendum would be needed: there is no doubt that Brexiteers would have continued their campaign to take Britain out of the EU and they would have had every democratic right to do so. But so equally do those who have doubts about the decision.

Brexit after all raises fundamental, indeed existential, issues for the future of the country. That is why the final deal needs the consent not only of parliament, but of a sovereign people.



• Vernon Bogdanor is professor of government at King’s College London. This article is based on his Gresham lecture delivered in June.

I'm not too impressed by this guy, he says......

"Britain will be negotiating, therefore, for a free trade agreement in a “hard” Brexit. But, sadly, our negotiating position may not be very powerful. If one leaves a tennis club because one does not wish to pay the subscription and does not like the rules yet still wishes to play tennis, one’s leverage is not strong. One is a supplicant."

He is forgetting that we too have a tennis court in the U.K. that the EU want to play on and indeed there are more games played on our court than on theirs. The EU have a trade surplus with the UK........
 
I bow to your greater knowledge.
The fact still remains that since June this year and I can vouch for this, we were herded back through non EU control gates in Malta.
My original point is that the self proclaimed paragons of efficiency France and Germany to name but two, should staff up the busier gates and stop being deliberately obstructive.

Of course they should, but it's a typical EU balls up........
 
...given all the nasty rhetoric that has emanated from EU officials since the Referendum decision. They appear to look upon us a something on the soles of their shoes. Their malice is directed at us in spite, because they will lose a large chunk of dosh that they would rather have (obviously!). Realistically, I believe they don't give a toss about the UK, they just want our financial contribution to continue ad infinitum...

There isn't a single EU official that I've met that thinks that, or indeed any European people. They're all just sad that it's come to this.
 
You know it has nothing to do with the EU, right? I flew out of City Airport yesterday and the flight was delayed by an hour due to IT problems. Is that the Tories fault rather than BA's (or BAA if it was an airport issue)?

This is an EU directive with a confusing implementation date. The directive should not have been issued until the EU knew it could be correctly implemented and resourced. This is not an IT issue, it's a policy and implementation issue. But I agree that the EU national governments and their airports are culpable too.......
 
This is an EU directive with a confusing implementation date. The directive should not have been issued until the EU knew it could be correctly implemented and resourced. This is not an IT issue, it's a policy and implementation issue. But I agree that the EU national governments and their airports are culpable too.......

Can you tell me which directive that might be (precise number) ?
 
There isn't a single EU official that I've met that thinks that, or indeed any European people. They're all just sad that it's come to this.


You're obviously meeting the wrong people, Bruce...

Haven't you read the garbage that has been spewed by people like Juncker in the last 13 months...???
 
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