Current Affairs EU In or Out

[JonS]

It's not "out of touch" - it is what it is. I'm aware that a lot of people think that way, so I'm not "out of touch".

"Little Englander" is all about being afraid of co-operation with the outside world and wanting Rule Britannia to exist again. That generalisation I will stick by, because it is the constant in any argument for Brexit.

This image says it all.

You are making a hideous generalisation mate, that everyone who voted for Brexit is a little Englander afraid of cooperation with the outside world.

So is it not possible to not be in a formal union with other countries and cooperate with other countries?

If that was so the majority of countries in the world would be Little Englanders or their own equivalent of that.

It really is a sweeping generalisation and pretty offensive to label us all like that as well as untrue.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I understand perfectly thanks. Spain could have vetoed our Brexit deal using Gibraltar as the reason. They now can't, but must agree any special status applied to it as an aside to the main deal. So what's changed? Hasn't the EU just removed a potential blockage to the main deal being agreed? If they didn't mention it, Spain could have held the entire deal up due to a dispute over the status of Gibraltar, now they can't, but they have retained the ability to object. Is that wrong?

I'm sure the practicalities of what happens with regards to border controls / visas etc aren't 'trivia' to both the inhabitants and the 5,000 Spanish workers btw.

I suppose the ironic thing is that people did kinda say that us being in the UK nullified any claims Spain might have over Gibraltar, and that leaving would reignite those claims. They were branded 'project fear'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36618796

 

[Old Blue 2]

You really need to discover how the forum sarcasm/irony font's configured mate!

Posted in standard font, standard colour, so no identification of sarcasm/irony there. On other forums I go on, sarcasm/irony is usually posted in purple.

And the broader sentence: "...Easy to just say one lot are this one lot are that, the argument when it mattered was won by the stay side , the stupid ,misinformed racist, little Englanders won,..."

Does any 'Leave' voter EVER believe the bold underlined words...? Really? Would any Leave voter ever post that? The 'stay' side offered nothing but threats and dire warnings. You and others really need to look further than the surface...

In two dimensional media, the same thing can mean different things to different readers. Make of it what you will.

And I'm still bleedin' gutted we dropped two points tonight...

 

[Old Blue 2]

I'm not stupid - probably more intelligent than you'll ever be, if you were to know ALL about me;
Lol lol

Good Lol, but... Who am I?

Anyway, are you related to the Jeffers who lived/live in Kirkdale and went to St. Johns. I went to St. Johns with one, and we both went on to CAGS.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The 'stay' side offered nothing but threats and dire warnings.

One of those 'threats' was that in the event of leaving, Spain would reignite its efforts to reclaim Gibraltar. Good job that hasn't happened, much less the rising risk of conflict in the continent. Project fear man.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Meanwhile, at the annual British Sociological Society shindig, a recent study was highlighted that looked at the happiness level of people and correlated it with their views on immigrants (note to Old Blue - I'm not suggesting leave voters are racist, daft little Englanders but I'm colour blind so couldn't find purple text).

Dr David Bartram, of the University of Leicester, analysed data from the European Social Survey on 5,995 people in the UK to correlate their opinion on immigration with how happy they described themselves on a scale of 0-10.

Those who wanted no more immigrants to enter scored an average of 7.16, and those who would allow "many" scored 7.91.

They found that the effect was strongest among those who were out of work because of sickness or disability, and those who had been unemployed in the past for three months or more. In these groups, those who would allow many immigrants to enter scored 7.07, and those who wanted none to enter scored 6.19.

"For the most part, immigration is not a threat to the employment or wages of natives. Economic research on that topic finds that for the economy as a whole, immigration enhances the economic situation of natives – it expands job opportunities and doesn't undermine wages.

"Instead it's the beliefs themselves that people have about immigrants, the way people think about immigrants – they're not 'part of us' – that makes them unhappy about immigrants, and indeed perhaps less happy in general.

"The fall of 8% in happiness is significant – equivalent to the gap between the average level of happiness of people earning £50,000 and those earning £20,000 a year, for instance.

"Anti-immigrant discourses, political messages that highlight and bemoan how different immigrants are, contribute to undermining the subjective well-being of the natives themselves.

"We would likely see a significant benefit if politicians stopped talking about immigration and immigrants in the way many of them currently do. The current discourse is damaging to natives, and recognition of this idea could amount to reason for reflection."

 

[JonS]

This is probably the best post I have read on this subject EVER (even if I dont necessarily agree with his statement about humans being automatically tribal): https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/ideas-to-improve-the-world.95694/reply?quote=5367608

Please take note @Clint Planet @Foot Long Hot Dog @Tubey and anyone else that wants to label Brexit as racism Or Little Englanderism or even just as plain stupid.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

This is probably the best post I have read on this subject EVER: https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/ideas-to-improve-the-world.95694/reply?quote=5367608

Please take note @Clint Planet @Foot Long Hot Dog @Tubey and anyone else that wants to label Brexit as racism Or Little Englanderism or even just as plain stupid.

I'd argue that the nation state is an outdated concept. Wars are fought between governments, not people. As my post above shows, it's the perception that we're different that needs to change, not the reality, because the reality is we're not.

I've said before, but will say again, this has been studied extensively by people like Geert Hofstede, and there is a huge amount of variance within nations in regards to how we think and act. It's perhaps not surprising that those who choose to migrate to a country have a lot in common with their host, but it isn't as simple as that.

To use Czech as an example, because I know it reasonably well, your average Prague residence will have much in common with your average Londoner, but if you head to the smaller towns and villages in Czech, then they share many of the Brexit like opinions of those from the provinces here. Different yet so similar.

 

[JonS]

I'd argue that the nation state is an outdated concept. Wars are fought between governments, not people. As my post above shows, it's the perception that we're different that needs to change, not the reality, because the reality is we're not.

I've said before, but will say again, this has been studied extensively by people like Geert Hofstede, and there is a huge amount of variance within nations in regards to how we think and act. It's perhaps not surprising that those who choose to migrate to a country have a lot in common with their host, but it isn't as simple as that.

To use Czech as an example, because I know it reasonably well, your average Prague residence will have much in common with your average Londoner, but if you head to the smaller towns and villages in Czech, then they share many of the Brexit like opinions of those from the provinces here. Different yet so similar.

Maybe nation states are an outdated concept but as Jamie's post suggets Supranational groupings and empires are not the answer and never have been IMO

 

[hallamblue]

I think the thing that swung it was that Leave offered an alternate way forward at a time when people feel unloved and ignored by society. People will usually vote against the status quo when this is the case. The fact it was so close tells you that either we have a lot of Europhiles in the country, or that "project fear" worked, or a bit of both.

 

[orchard]

I'm not sure what all this means really mate. Maybe that there are true Brexiteers, and false, i don't know.
However, rather than basking in the glory of a close 'out' vote, it's about time those that wanted out start taking responsibility for their decisions and ensure that the Government realises what they want and doesn't abuse the result to serve their own ends and agenda.

Posted in standard font, standard colour, so no identification of sarcasm/irony there. On other forums I go on, sarcasm/irony is usually posted in purple.

And the broader sentence: "...Easy to just say one lot are this one lot are that, the argument when it mattered was won by the stay side , the stupid ,misinformed racist, little Englanders won,..."

Does any 'Leave' voter EVER believe the bold underlined words...? Really? Would any Leave voter ever post that? The 'stay' side offered nothing but threats and dire warnings. You and others really need to look further than the surface...

In two dimensional media, the same thing can mean different things to different readers. Make of it what you will.

And I'm still bleedin' gutted we dropped two points tonight...

 

[edge]

Posted in standard font, standard colour, so no identification of sarcasm/irony there. On other forums I go on, sarcasm/irony is usually posted in purple.

And the broader sentence: "...Easy to just say one lot are this one lot are that, the argument when it mattered was won by the stay side , the stupid ,misinformed racist, little Englanders won,..."

Does any 'Leave' voter EVER believe the bold underlined words...? Really? Would any Leave voter ever post that? The 'stay' side offered nothing but threats and dire warnings. You and others really need to look further than the surface...

In two dimensional media, the same thing can mean different things to different readers. Make of it what you will.

And I'm still bleedin' gutted we dropped two points tonight...

Stay posters had posted just that a few posts above mine, hence the sarcasm,
I am a leave voter and made i plain since the beginning of this thread and the ballot box as the poster i was replying to knew and most of the frequent posters in here know as well.
Sorry if it confused you
Ps went to st John's as a kid as well.

 

[Old Blue 2]

1. Went the same school at junoi

2. Leave posters had posted just that a few posts above mine

1. Could you explain a bit more. I think your sentence is not finished.
2. Must have missed it - my bad. If an apology is in order, then it is offered unreservedly. Still don't understand the correlation between the first part of the sentence & the second (stay won the argument and then the bad names to the leavers).

 

[edge]

1. Could you explain a bit more. I think your sentence is not finished.
2. Must have missed it - my bad. If an apology is in order, then it is offered unreservedly. Still don't understand the correlation between the first part of the sentence & the second (stay won the argument and then the bad names to the leavers).

Sorry old blue. Bloody phone it's posted in full now.
No need for apologies mate i just wind people up so can't complain when i get a bit back , made me laugh to be honest as i knew the stay lot should buzz off me getting stick.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Sorry old blue. Bloody phone it's posted in full now.
No need for apologies mate i just wind people up so can't complain when i get a bit back , made me laugh to be honest as i knew the stay lot should buzz off me getting stick.

Fine, no problem. I get stick on a regular basis as well.

Were you intending to post something about school as well, in your last post? I was at St. Johns infants & juniors from 1955 to July 1962, then on to CAGS. One of the Jeffers did so also, a year below me. He was a great rugby player - fly half. I believe he is the uncle of Francis Jeffers of Everton & Arsenal fame.