Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

Have to say, Bruce, you also do not understand the difference between 'campaign' and 'implementation'. It is not incumbent upon those who campaigned for the UK to leave the EU to come up with the minutiae of how it was to be/would be implemented. They can come up with the reasons why they believe the UK should leave, but it is not, and never was, within their ambit to say/dictate how the leaving process should be carried out. The one (campaign) is quite separate from the other (implementation), and so it should be.

I beg to differ. If you campaign for something, then you should have researched the impact of what you propose, and the likelihood of it coming to pass. Indeed, you should really have a number of different scenarios in mind to reflect different outcomes. That's just sensible. Most of the lead protagonists in the campaign were inside government, so they would have all of the figures to do this accurately, yet they appear to have done no homework prior to the campaign, no homework during the campaign, and now appear to be doing no work after it either.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

See it for what it is, FLHD. It's political brinkmanship. Flagging up to the EU that we'll not be steamrollered by them. There are a crowd of knobheads in charge at the EU who are miffed by our decision and are trying to look 'dead 'ard' to maintain their clout. It's the kind of political shenanigans that has always gone on... The same as Sturgeon's sabre-rattling up in Scotland!

As for economic forecasts! Don't make me laugh!!! Not worth the scrap of paper they are scribbled on! This topic has been covered ad nauseam in this thread...

So all economic forecasts are pointless? Ok mate lol

These are Davis's own words to the select committee;

"I made it clear that actually we could manage this in such a way as to be better than a bad deal. And this is true."

“I can’t quantify it for you in detail yet. I may well be able to do so in about a year’s time. But it’s certainly the case. It’s not as frightening as, frankly some people think.

So he can definitively say that no deal is better than a bad deal, but can't say why and has done knack all research on it? And this idiot is fronting up our negotiations? FFS

We were always going to go into these negotiations on the back foot, as was spelt out before the vote, however, Leave said good old Blighty was needed way too much by Johnny Foreigner for us to get a crap deal. Not looking like that's how it'll pan out is it?

 

[Old Blue 2]

I beg to differ. If you campaign for something, then you should have researched the impact of what you propose, and the likelihood of it coming to pass. Indeed, you should really have a number of different scenarios in mind to reflect different outcomes. That's just sensible. Most of the lead protagonists in the campaign were inside government, so they would have all of the figures to do this accurately, yet they appear to have done no homework prior to the campaign, no homework during the campaign, and now appear to be doing no work after it either.

If you think 'Campaign' work and 'Implementation' work go hand-in-hand, then...

 

[Old Blue 2]

So all economic forecasts are pointless? Ok mate lol

These are Davis's own words to the select committee;

"I made it clear that actually we could manage this in such a way as to be better than a bad deal. And this is true."

“I can’t quantify it for you in detail yet. I may well be able to do so in about a year’s time. But it’s certainly the case. It’s not as frightening as, frankly some people think.

So he can definitively say that no deal is better than a bad deal, but can't say why and has done knack all research on it? And this idiot is fronting up our negotiations? FFS

We were always going to go into these negotiations on the back foot, as was spelt out before the vote, however, Leave said good old Blighty was needed way too much by Johnny Foreigner for us to get a crap deal. Not looking like that's how it'll pan out is it?

Two things:
Nobody, but nobody, in the Government is going to show their hand completely at this stage, and it is foolish to believe that they would.
In business (as I believe in matters such as this in politics) there is such a thing as 'Commercial-In Confidence', which simply means that the content of a particular subject cannot be publicly disclosed. This would obviously apply to any prepatory work inside Government for the leaving of the EU, and also the ongoing discussions and then negotiations.

Do you REALLY think that everything is going to be publicly disclosed, almost on a daily basis?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Two things:
Nobody, but nobody, in the Government is going to show their hand completely at this stage, and it is foolish to believe that they would.
In business (as I believe in matters such as this in politics) there is such a thing as 'Commercial-In Confidence', which simply means that the content of a particular subject cannot be publicly disclosed. This would obviously apply to any prepatory work inside Government for the leaving of the EU, and also the ongoing discussions and then negotiations.

Do you REALLY think that everything is going to be publicly disclosed, almost on a daily basis?

I've not asked for nor am expecting that.

What I am expecting is that the nuclear option that they're proclaiming is 'not so bad' has been thoroughly researched in the preceding 9 months.

The civil service are still woefully under resourced and under prepared for this entire process. The scale and complexity of this untangling is gargantuan and by the time they realise the scale of the task the wave will have engulfed them.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

If you think 'Campaign' work and 'Implementation' work go hand-in-hand, then...

I believe if you campaign for a project to take place, you should have thought through both the merits of that project, and how it might be implemented, as you can't do one with out the other. We do have three prominent leave campaigners in the top Brexit jobs after all.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I believe if you campaign for a project to take place, you should have thought through both the merits of that project, and how it might be implemented, as you can't do one with out the other. We do have three prominent leave campaigners in the top Brexit jobs after all.

Apparently in the new age of politics you can campaign for something, make all kinds of incorrect claims, then once you've won, you can pack up, go home and then never mention the promises again, as it was just a campaign and no-one really meant it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Apparently in the new age of politics you can campaign for something, make all kinds of incorrect claims, then once you've won, you can pack up, go home and then never mention the promises again, as it was just a campaign and no-one really meant it.

It just seems an utter shambles that no one seems to have done any preparation work on the off chance that leave may actually win.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It just seems an utter shambles that no one seems to have done any preparation work on the off chance that leave may actually win.

My other half had a meeting with a senior civil servant about a week or so after the vote. She asked what preparation work had been done, and the answer was zero. They'd done no planning whatsoever for what would happen if Leave won, nothing, nada, zilch, zero, zip.

That was down to Cameron, the arrogant turd. But Davis has been in the seat for 9 months and he's compounded the error by not weighing up the options armed with some financial modelling, it's criminally stupid.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

My other half had a meeting with a senior civil servant about a week or so after the vote. She asked what preparation work had been done, and the answer was zero. They'd done no planning whatsoever for what would happen if Leave won, nothing, nada, zilch, zero, zip.

That was down to Cameron, the arrogant turd. But Davis has been in the seat for 9 months and he's compounded the error by not weighing up the options armed with some financial modelling, it's criminally stupid.

The thing I don't get is that it's in their (Davis et al) interest to do so. If Brexit stinks the place out, they'll carry the can for it failing, so I don't see why they didn't do some thinking about what might happen should they win. Even if Cameron failed to do this, you'd think those actually campaigning for it would have done so, even if they needed Banks or someone to pay for the work to be done.

 

[peteblue]

Two things:
Nobody, but nobody, in the Government is going to show their hand completely at this stage, and it is foolish to believe that they would.
In business (as I believe in matters such as this in politics) there is such a thing as 'Commercial-In Confidence', which simply means that the content of a particular subject cannot be publicly disclosed. This would obviously apply to any prepatory work inside Government for the leaving of the EU, and also the ongoing discussions and then negotiations.

Do you REALLY think that everything is going to be publicly disclosed, almost on a daily basis?

This really. There will be lots of games played as negotiations commence, but you do not start a negotiation by immediately arming the other side, or indeed the various anti democracy remainer groups within the U.K........

 

[Old Blue 2]

I believe if you campaign for a project to take place, you should have thought through both the merits of that project, and how it might be implemented, as you can't do one with out the other. We do have three prominent leave campaigners in the top Brexit jobs after all.

Not so, Bruce. I could campaign strongly for a particular candidate during an election. Doesn't mean I PERSONALLY will then implement their policies.

Can you not see that simple logic...???

 

[orchard]

-additionally, one would have thought Camoron would a least have instigated a loose framework of research prior to his discussions about concessions with the EU.

My other half had a meeting with a senior civil servant about a week or so after the vote. She asked what preparation work had been done, and the answer was zero. They'd done no planning whatsoever for what would happen if Leave won, nothing, nada, zilch, zero, zip.

That was down to Cameron, the arrogant turd. But Davis has been in the seat for 9 months and he's compounded the error by not weighing up the options armed with some financial modelling, it's criminally stupid.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

The thing I don't get is that it's in their (Davis et al) interest to do so. If Brexit stinks the place out, they'll carry the can for it failing, so I don't see why they didn't do some thinking about what might happen should they win. Even if Cameron failed to do this, you'd think those actually campaigning for it would have done so, even if they needed Banks or someone to pay for the work to be done.

Not if they flounce out of the negotiations and blame the EU for their intransigence, which will play to the Leave audience and re-inforce the narrative as to why we're leaving. No deal is better than a bad deal - for the Tories. As if they put their name to the best they can get, which is likely to be crap, then they've delivered it. If they blame the failure of the talks on the EU and take us over the cliff edge as the 'only option' then they can save their political skins. That's how I see this panning out now, watch it unfold, they're preparing the ground for it with their tone.

 

[Harryflashman]

The thing I don't get is that it's in their (Davis et al) interest to do so. If Brexit stinks the place out, they'll carry the can for it failing, so I don't see why they didn't do some thinking about what might happen should they win. Even if Cameron failed to do this, you'd think those actually campaigning for it would have done so, even if they needed Banks or someone to pay for the work to be done.

I honestly think whether it's accepted on not and I include the 'nuclear option ' in this , is massively dependent on the media . The Tories backtracked massively on the self-employed insurance when faced by the backlash from Dacre , the telegraph and the Sun who mobilised and informed the PM in no uncertain terms it wasn't acceptable and were hugely influential in stirring up public opinion .

If those media sources are on board with whatever Brexit we have , and I think they probably will be , then they'll exert their influence and probably carry it .

That's not to say people don't know what they want or that the vote wasn't fair , I just mean the influence is there and I believe it'll be exerted.