Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

I think you and other's give Gove far more credit then he deserves. I think many people voted based on what Fararge said, I think lots of people voted based on what Boris Johnson said, I think lots of people voted based on what Osborne and his cronies in project fear said, I think loads of people voted because they remember old arguments from the original referendum and I think loads of people voted without taking all of the above into consideration and voted based on their own findings. I certainly believe that next to nobody watched Michael Gove and said "oh I'm convinced, I must vote leave". I truly doubt anyone (maybe a tiny number did) cast they're vote leave because of him. He's a fraud who has ridden of the coattails of better politicians as I said before.

Wasn't it Gove and Johnson that rammed home that particular label? It was part of their wider message that we should not trust experts or authorities because they are leading you on. It certainly wasn't Farage that initiated that term, and it made any attempts to use reason in the debate difficult as it could just be dismissed as project fear or experts who know nothing. Trust us, we live in the real world, not an ivory tower.

 

[Woolly Blue]

Truth is, I don't really like this country that much anymore - I'm seriously looking to move abroad.

If you get the opportunity to move abroad then go for it. I've lived and worked abroad a couple of times and learnt a lot, including about stuff I took for granted in this country.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, I'm still angry about all the lies and racism - people were conned as far as I'm concerned and I will continue to moan and complain as much as I want because it still may make some sort of difference.

Truth is, I don't really like this country that much anymore - I'm seriously looking to move abroad.

Where are you thinking Clint? Poland seems even more under the sway of the alt-right than here (Czech is the same).

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Listen, I'm a teacher - I despise the slippery little get. All I'm saying is I will never write off someone so pathologically shameless as Gove. I truly hope you are proved correct, though!

Fair enough mate but I'm sure I'm right and that he's finished at any major level of government.

BTW I did enjoy your "listen, in a teacher" line mate. A good friend of mine (who is also teacher) says that all the time as her final point in any argument to effectively dismiss the person she's debating with ( I'm not saying your doing that BTW!) I suppose I should just count myself lucky that such pillars of wisdom find the time to debate with a mere mortal such as myself!

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Wasn't it Gove and Johnson that rammed home that particular label? It was part of their wider message that we should not trust experts or authorities because they are leading you on. It certainly wasn't Farage that initiated that term, and it made any attempts to use reason in the debate difficult as it could just be dismissed as project fear or experts who know nothing. Trust us, we live in the real world, not an ivory tower.

I'm pretty sure it was actually Dominic Cummings who first coined that phrase but I could be wrong. If my memory serves me correctly he said it as a throwaway comment long before the referendum heated up and Boris Johnson (never misses a good line does Boris) used it to big effect. I doubt it would of made any impact at all if Mr Michael "Charisma bypass" Gove had been the only one to use it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm pretty sure it was actually Dominic Cummings who first coined that phrase but I could be wrong. If my memory serves me correctly he said it as a throwaway comment long before the referendum heated up and Boris Johnson (never misses a good line does Boris) used it to big effect. I doubt it would of made any effect at all if Mr Michael "Charisma bypass" Gove had been the only one to use it.

You can imagine the confusion though. I mean Cummings came out a few weeks ago and said the campaign was based upon lies, and then (leave voting) people were saying he was irrelevent in the campaign, no one voted because of him and so on.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

You can imagine the confusion though. I mean Cummings came out a few weeks ago and said the campaign was based upon lies, and then (leave voting) people were saying he was irrelevent in the campaign, no one voted because of him and so on.

I'm sure we can agree that both campaigns were based on half-truths and outright lies. The remain side were just as guilty in this. I still can't believe how bad the remain campaign was, I didn't see any positive comments about being a member of the EU from them at all, it was just endless threats and warnings. Had they campaigned more positively I'm almost certain they'd of won and I say that as somebody who voted leave. Instead of telling us about the negative effects of leaving they should of talked about the positive effects of staying. They chose to fight a negative race and it backfired spectacularly.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm sure we can agree that both campaigns were based on half-truths and outright lies. The remain side were just as guilty in this. I still can't believe how bad the remain campaign was, I didn't see any positive comments about being a member of the EU from them at all, it was just endless threats and warnings. Had they campaigned more positively I'm almost certain they'd of won and I say that as somebody who voted leave. Instead of telling us about the negative effects of leaving they should of talked about the positive effects of staying. They chose to fight a negative race and it backfired spectacularly.

Yes and no. To draw comparison with the US election. When statements from both camps were measured for accuracy, I think Clinton lied around 25/30% of the time, but Trump was up around 80/90%. Now I've no doubt that people stateside would say the same thing, that both camps lied, in an attempt to justify Trump doing little but lie, and that's kinda the thing with the Brexit referendum.

I can't think of many things the leave campaign said that was true. I quite agree, the remain campaign was not great either, and there has been a terrible slackness around trumpeting the virtues of globalisation, and more specifically EU membership for a long time. That's coming back to bite us now.

But think about the various things said:

- emergency budget - that didn't happen, but the BoE did drop interest rates and print several billion in new money to ease the markets, so a response did happen. You've also still got an incredibly stretched government budget, with the prospect of a hefty bill for Brexit to add on top of that (regardless of whether you think there will be a 'divorce bill', there will still be considerable expense involved in the act of leaving). And that's before the economy reacts to whatever agreement we end up with.

- global stability - this is still to play out imo. Trump was undoubtedly boosted by Brexit, and his election has been bad news for global stability. The same applies in elections across Europe, with populist leaders all lauding Brexit. A dismantled EU is not good for global stability imo, but people criticise that warning on the seeming grounds that war didn't break out the day after the vote.

They were the crux of so called project fear, and both still have a very real possibility of happening.

 

[Clint Planet]

Where are you thinking Clint? Poland seems even more under the sway of the alt-right than here (Czech is the same).

God, I'd hate to live in Poland under PiS. Anyway, it's too cold in the winter and I can't speak the language. My Spanish, on the other hand, is pretty good. Obviously, Brexit may make moving to Spain a bit more complicated but there are plenty of international schools out there and at least my wife would still be an EU citizen...

 

[Clint Planet]

I'm sure we can agree that both campaigns were based on half-truths and outright lies.

Nah, Leave swung it with a combination of racism (that UKIP poster was a disgrace) and that massive whopper about giving the NHS £350M a week.

 

[tadao]

Forgive me for mentioning that you seem to be making an assumption about both Gove and the public's response to him.
Shall we have a truce on assumption and rely instead on the (very little) evidence.

I think you and other's give Gove far more credit then he deserves. I think many people voted based on what Fararge said, I think lots of people voted based on what Boris Johnson said, I think lots of people voted based on what Osborne and his cronies in project fear said, I think loads of people voted because they remember old arguments from the original referendum and I think loads of people voted without taking all of the above into consideration and voted based on their own findings. I certainly believe that next to nobody watched Michael Gove and said "oh I'm convinced, I must vote leave". I truly doubt anyone (maybe a tiny number did) cast they're vote leave because of him. He's a fraud who has ridden of the coattails of better politicians as I said before.

While I disagree with his politics and you or I might or might not believe he is of little consequence anymore, it's a bit of a leap of faith, to believe one of the figureheads of the 'leave campaign', had little or no impact on the final outcome.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Nah, Leave swung it with a combination of racism (that UKIP poster was a disgrace) and that massive whopper about giving the NHS £350M a week.

Still trumpeting the above LIE, I see.

The £350 million figure was given as an EQUIVALENT amount of the cost of building a new hospital, NOT giving the NHS £350 million a week.

Let me say that again, just so there is no misunderstanding: EQUIVALENT Read what's in the box, from a leaflet during the campaign. Over to you to post a photo of the bus. Yawn, yawn. This has been done to death already multiple times in this thread, and STILL the Remainers go on about it...

 

[Clint Planet]

Over to you to post a photo of the bus.

Here you go:

Hmmm......

 

[1966efc]

While I disagree with his politics and you or I might or might not believe he is of little consequence anymore, it's a bit of a leap of faith, to believe one of the figureheads of the 'leave campaign', had little or no impact on the final outcome.

Might have persuaded some, might have repelled others. Who knows? In an emotional debate, I lkie to stick to facts.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Here you go:

Hmmm......

Exactly. Doesn't say put £350 million into the NHS each week, does it? 'No' is the answer! QED End of...! Thank you for supporting my contention.