Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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So you're saying that you voted to leave not because of economic reasons, but because you don't want foreigners in your country?

Amazing.

Do not put words into my mouth.

I commented on a singular issue. There are other issues involved in the round of consideration as to why I (and I presume others) decided to vote Leave. Had you followed this thread in any great depth (which I am presuming you haven't, otherwise you would already know my other views), you would know my views on other issues concerning the present state of the EU.

If you think the sole issue was immigration, then you really do need to widen your views on the whole EU in or out issue...

I get fed up with Remoaners re-cycling the same old crap, trying to trap people. It's useless, worthless, and totally boring. But it is also a window into their 'little boy' approach to not getting their sweeties, and throwing a tantrum as a result. If the cap fits, wear it...!
 
IMMIGRATION

Most people agree that unlimited immigration (eg if there was free movement from anywhere in the world) would lead to a drop in the standards of living for most (unless they were particularly large and undeveloped) countries that experienced a large influx of people.

All many Brexiteers think is that we have reached that point already (where standards of living are being reduced) whereas many remainders' think that we haven't reached it (but if tested by unlimited immigration I suspect they would then say "enough")

So a lot of this argument between the two camps is about at what point the point when more immigration is a detriment is reached.

I would suggest the reason why most remainers don't think it has been reached and most brexiteers think it has is highly related to the current economic wellbeing and prospects felt by the people in each camp.
 
You're doing a very good job at evading what is a very simple question!

I'm not blaming immigrants one bit - I'm just questioning some of the statements being banded about throughout this whole debate. I worry that the secondary effects are not factored into any claim that any immigrant worker - yes, that includes U.K. workers heading overseas - make a net contribution. I want to know if the 2nd/3rd order costs are taken into account: I strongly suspect they aren't, hence this particular claim doesn't stack up in my mind.

I'm anti-EU but NOT because of immigration - although I do believe that it needs to be controlled properly for a variety of reasons (including, importantly, security). My real dislike of the EU was primarily over sovereignty and how I feel their powers have reached too far into individual national apparatus such as the judiciary. No blame from my perspective about immigrants - sorry if that doesn't match any Remainer's pre-conceived assumptions about me, my thinking or my background.

As I've said to you, I don't know that existing data covers that because doing so would be horrendously complex. What data does show however is that immigration doesn't affect wages or employment levels. What is very dangerous is to say that no evidence = support for a claim, which is kind of what's happening here. No one said, lets study all of this in as much detail and as impartially as possible, and then we can make a truly informed decision on immigration and the EU more widely. No one has said that. There's been no call for it as far as I can tell.

Can you explain why we should assume that current technological disruptions aren't qualitatively different than in the past? And why we should assume technology or the "free market" will sort everything out, beyond just asserting that it will?

For example, in the US, Truck Driver is by far the most common job in most states.
job-in-each-state.png


It's a brutal job that is almost inherently unhealthy; it keeps families apart; and labour code violations are endemic, such that drivers are almost compelled by the competition to take drugs to stay up for the required shift lengths, and many don't even feel they have time to stop to use the loo. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ave-to-defecate-urinate-in-vans-a7411001.html

It is also practically the only thing left that allows people without uni to earn a living wage. There are about 3.5 million truckers in the US, almost 3% of its full-time work force. And within the decade, we might have the ability to replace all of them with machines. What happens to their families? Where do they go? What do they do? If McDonalds and friends automate to crush the Fight for 15 Movement, they won't even have that left. So how does this actually play out, such that it's "the best thing that can happen to [them]"

At this point most economists will remind us that Malthus was ultimately wrong, that Paul Ehrlich was ultimately wrong, and that technology we don't even understand yet will magically save us. Some say the same thing will come into being and prevent global warming. I can't be bothered to track them all down, but there's no doubt a litany of Mughal, Qing or Ottoman texts projecting the same certainty. But it seems to me that these views are based more on quasi-religious Enlightenment-era views of never ending progress more than anything actually concrete. We know that in fact, things get worse, economies collapse, states fail, and problems go unsolved.

"Lassez-faire" was initially more a religious doctrine than an economic one. How dare puny mortals interfere with the wishes of god, expressed via the "free market." This is why during the Irish Famine, for example, Trevelyan and friends refused to prevent the Irish from starving. Ireland throughout the period was a net exporter of agricultural products to the UK. The Famine, as Trevelyan put it, was not the result of human error but rather, "the judgement of God." "The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine," he wrote, "but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

We are a secular society now, but the logic still holds. Free market hardliners can accept just about any outcome regardless of the human toll so long as they deem it to have been "freely" derived. Like Voltaire's Dr. Pangloss, it represents "the best of all possible worlds." And this is the cold comfort that we offer to those (never "us") whose lives have thus been disrupted or even destroyed. Of course, the idea of a "free market" actually being allowed to run in practice is laughable. No country has ever industrialized or "modernized" without careful state nurturing through tariffs and research and investment, from Germany, France, Japan and the US in the 1800s, to Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea, and maybe now China, Malaysia and Vietnam after the war. Some are competently run and succeed, others are mismanaged and fail. Private enterprise invests a negligible amount in R&D compared to government. Virtually every major postwar technological innovation in the US has been government funded to some degree or another, usually by the Defence Department. There isn't a single iPhone part developed or iPhone developer trained without extensive government support. Where would Silicon Valley be without the internet and NSF grants? And we don't even care enough to get them to pay taxes anymore.

TLDR, I know, I know. But even as we intervene to protect our corporate cartels and strike trade deals to give them extra-legal privileges and monopolies abroad, we in the Anglo-Saxon world also just discard the abruptly unemployable on the curb with the trash - truckers and McDonalds workers. It isn't so much that technology and markets make everything better so much as that we decide in advance that their outcomes - however destructive they may be - are inherently just. This is a political as much as a market-driven phenomenon. Technological changes are inevitable to a large extent, but we do have the ability to manage the pace and intensity of their impact. But Informed by the same "free market" ideological convictions, we've been driving up the cost of education, making home-ownership a luxury, reducing the quality and increasing the price of health care, crushing worker representation, eliminating basic public services, and, icing on the cake, pathologizing and humiliating the victims, as though it's simply a problem of motivation, and the scientifically-documented trauma of long-term poverty doesn't exist. We did this in the US when even white people began to suffer (http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...dysfunction-real-opportunity-needed-not-trump) and I expect we'll do the same when it's the truckers' turn.

I think Brexit and Trump are extremely counter-productive and will only make things worse for their proponents, but at the very least they suggest that it's time to take them seriously, and stop assuming that political decisions and outcomes that serve us and hurt them are merely "free" or "natural" processes. "Laissez faire" is not going to solve this problem, unless we define it a priori as the solution, come what may.

Right, that's enough... it's embarrassing how long it turned out to be. I'm just... more skeptical of blasé liberalist teleological optimism.

There's an awful lot there. Regarding the pace of change, it is possible that things are changing so much faster than previously that people won't be able to adapt fast enough. That is certainly possible, but if we take driving as an example. Car travel remains the biggest non-disease related killer in the world today. More than wars, more than guns, and that's before we get into the deaths and ill health caused by air pollution. So automating driving is undoubtedly good for society.

The question then is how to respond to that, because as you rightly say, it's the biggest employer of un-skilled men in the western world (as farming used to be lets remember). Helping people to retrain is one option, but I fear that both those at risk and those in government are burying their heads in the sand and hoping this doesn't happen. That's certainly my impression from speaking to politicians in the DoE. What's more, with many of the technologies that are being developed, I'm almost certain that those in regulatory capacities are not as clued up as those at the front-line. This is certainly the case with things like AI.

Some people propose a universal income to help support those who can't find work. It's another option, but one I don't know a great deal about other than I know Switzerland recently voted not to go down that road. Instinctively I think this is a bad idea as there have been no end of studies highlighting the mental and physical benefits of working. I think humans will (and should) always be doing something productive.

My point wasn't to say that I know the answers, merely to say that technology is probably more disruptive than migration (a fact I'm sure Trump appreciates deep down), but politicians are pinning the tail on the wrong donkey at the moment, and that only delays any conversations to properly tackle how we will be in this fourth industrial revolution. Not treating the electorate like mugs would seem a good start point.

Capitalism is not working. Globalisation and erosion of workers' rights is leading to an increasingly volatile political situation which governments (on behalf of the people they serve - the super-wealthy) are responding to by militarising the law enforcement agencies, debasing the currency, gating off the poor and stripping them of yet more employment rights and even their democratic representation (since the illusion of democracy is merely that - an illusion - in a plutocracy).

Throw off the yoke of your libertarian Rand-isms and smell the coffee. The supertanker is drifting towards the rocks and you're telling the crew about next Tuesday's CPD.

(actually, that analogy doesn't quite work but I like it too much to delete it)

Politicians are stoking up fears for their own ends. That's what is causing the volatility around the world. As I've said already, jobs are more at risk due to automation than from migration, yet know populist is proposing to go on some Luddite inspired binge to destroy the machines, and they're not doing that because it isn't a vote winner in the sense of blaming foreigners is, and that then stokes the divisions in society that is causing this volatility.

Regarding capitalism not working, I'd ask you on what measure? Poverty around the world is going down at a faster pace than ever before. Health and life expectancy is likewise going up. Education levels around the world are going up, especially for previously disenfranchised groups. Globalisation has some issues, no doubts about it, but all in all it has been a tremendous force of good for the world, and when we look at what the alternative might be, it seems crazy to throw that baby out with the bathwater.
 
IMMIGRATION

Most people agree that unlimited immigration (eg if there was free movement from anywhere in the world) would lead to a drop in the standards of living for most (unless they were particularly large and undeveloped) countries that experienced a large influx of people.

All many Brexiteers think is that we have reached that point already (where standards of living are being reduced) whereas many remainders' think that we haven't reached it (but if tested by unlimited immigration I suspect they would then say "enough")

So a lot of this argument between the two camps is about at what point the point when more immigration is a detriment is reached.

I would suggest the reason why most remainers don't think it has been reached and most brexiteers think it has is highly related to the current economic wellbeing and prospects felt by the people in each camp.

What is the carrying capacity of the United Kingdom, and when answering that what accounts for the huge discrepancies in population densities in urban areas?
 
What is the carrying capacity of the United Kingdom, and when answering that what accounts for the huge discrepancies in population densities in urban areas?

I'm not sure there is an objective answer to your first question, Bruce (but do tell me if you think there is).

Similarly please let me know the answer to the second question
 
I'm not sure there is an objective answer to your first question, Bruce (but do tell me if you think there is).

Similarly please let me know the answer to the second question

I don't know the answer, but without it we can't really say there are too many people can we? In my borough of London for instance, there are 27,000 people/sq mi. That's roughly three times as high as in Boston, Lincs (as an example), which is 9,410/sq mi. Yet the two places voted very differently.
 
I don't know the answer, but without it we can't really say there are too many people can we? In my borough of London for instance, there are 27,000 people/sq mi. That's roughly three times as high as in Boston, Lincs (as an example), which is 9,410/sq mi. Yet the two places voted very differently.

Maybe the reason could be related to what I said in that people voted according to their feeling about their current economic situation and prospects and that the Londoners feel more positive about that than those in Boston.

That said my own feeling on London is that the population density is high enough and ideally I'd prefer it not to get higher
 
I don't know the answer, but without it we can't really say there are too many people can we? In my borough of London for instance, there are 27,000 people/sq mi. That's roughly three times as high as in Boston, Lincs (as an example), which is 9,410/sq mi. Yet the two places voted very differently.
Yes but their all rich in your borough Bruce two hours kip last night my mother in law seen a doctor from telephoning at 2pm seen a doctor in A&E at 5 pm she is having thrombosis test - A disgraceful wait yet most of A&E was full of the usual drunks Druggies etc she sat in the waiting room in a wheel chair for approx 9 hours before seeing a doctor I could not support the wife as I have the flu - good job L was not there as I would have made a scene disgraceful wait about time these abusers paid for A&E care, and genuine patients got seen first mind yo if your over 80 they are not that interested in bed blockers been told that to my face with my late father in law no staff yet persecuted by drunks people who had been drunk fighting etc etc
Let's hope the blues win today!
 
Yes but their all rich in your borough Bruce two hours kip last night my mother in law seen a doctor from telephoning at 2pm seen a doctor in A&E at 5 pm she is having thrombosis test - A disgraceful wait yet most of A&E was full of the usual drunks Druggies etc she sat in the waiting room in a wheel chair for approx 9 hours before seeing a doctor I could not support the wife as I have the flu - good job L was not there as I would have made a scene disgraceful wait about time these abusers paid for A&E care, and genuine patients got seen first mind yo if your over 80 they are not that interested in bed blockers been told that to my face with my late father in law no staff yet persecuted by drunks people who had been drunk fighting etc etc
Let's hope the blues win today!

She on the mend though mate? Hope so.
 
What data does show however is that immigration doesn't affect wages or employment levels.

i think of lot of the problems associated with immigration could be resolved much more easily and effectively by just augmenting and enforcing labour legislation.

it might also be worth noting that there are economically deprived parts of the Anglosphere that largely hold a very different perspective than in the US, England, and Australia, and that are desperately trying to recruit immigrants to invigorate greying towns. this is one of the only things that Canada actually does well.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...uits-immigrants-to-win-race-for-skilled-labor

http://www.theguardian.pe.ca/news/l...-more-pnp-immigrants-coming-to-p-4578023.html

http://www.acoa-apeca.gc.ca/eng/Agency/MediaRoom/NewsReleases/Pages/4824.aspx

"Atlantic Canadian provinces have long struggled with high unemployment rates and an exodus of young families who go west to work in other provinces. This has led to an aging population and labour force shortages in various key areas of the region’s economies.

But Nova Scotia Premier Stephen McNeil stressed new Canadians that come to the region from the pilot project will not be taking employment opportunities away from Atlantic Canadians.

“No one is coming into the Atlantic region and taking someone else’s job. People are coming into Atlantic Canada and taking jobs that are not being filled or, quite frankly, coming in and creating jobs and hiring our sons and daughters,” McNeil said."

...

"Calabrese is also honest about some of the challenges the island is facing, including the very reason he hopes Americans and others consider moving there: high unemployment and a declining population.

“A slow economy, in combination with out-migration has us on an unsustainable path,” the website explains. “The truth is we welcome all, no matter the ideology. We have a beautiful island, a friendly people, a rich culture and a bright future. Join us here on Cape Breton Island!”
 
Politicians are stoking up fears for their own ends. That's what is causing the volatility around the world.

That's certainly part of it but inequality and economic insecurity are playing a massive part in it, as they always do. There'd have been no revolutions in France, Russia, Cuba, Nicaragua etc if the politically and economically advantaged hadn't been arrogant, complacent and greedy. Hmmm, now what does that remind me of?

Regarding capitalism not working, I'd ask you on what measure? Poverty around the world is going down at a faster pace than ever before. Health and life expectancy is likewise going up. Education levels around the world are going up, especially for previously disenfranchised groups. Globalisation has some issues, no doubts about it, but all in all it has been a tremendous force of good for the world, and when we look at what the alternative might be, it seems crazy to throw that baby out with the bathwater.

On what measure is it not working? Are you serious?
 
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