Current Affairs Environmental Stuff

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How exactly ?…….

The system (pre-COVID anyway) was stuffed full of waste pete - most notoriously people employed to work out who had to pay for delays between Network Rail, the Train Operating Companies, the train leasing companies and anyone else they could find but also Network Rail employing contractors (and sub-contractors) to carry out work that an in-house team would be able to do cheaper, then there was the the actual cost of negotiating the franchises that TOCs had (which themselves were millions of £). It was an accountant's paradise.
Very few of these costs existed under BR and wouldn't under a re-unified system either (private or nationalised). Partially as a result of all this Network Rail is nearly £60 billion in debt now, which is remarkable as it isn't even 20 years old, hasn't built any substantial new lines and only employs around 60,000 people.

Meanwhile SNCF - which is a unified network and does own all its track / stations / land, most of its trains and directly employs nearly all of its quarter of a million staff - is in less debt (50 billion euro, though the French government has reduced that to 38 bn recently), produces more revenue (30 billion euro vs 18 billion pound), has lower ticket prices and has a better, more modern and in many places much faster network.

Then there are the ticket prices. If I wanted to go today from Paris to Lyon on the 1855 train (2 hours on the TGV) it would cost 97 euro, or 137 euro first class. To go from Euston to Liverpool (2 hours 20 minutes on a Pendolino) today, on the 1800 train, its £196 standard or £255 first class.

The system we have is terrible for almost everyone, and really needs to be replaced with something that can stop burning cash at such a frightening rate.
 
The system (pre-COVID anyway) was stuffed full of waste pete - most notoriously people employed to work out who had to pay for delays between Network Rail, the Train Operating Companies, the train leasing companies and anyone else they could find but also Network Rail employing contractors (and sub-contractors) to carry out work that an in-house team would be able to do cheaper, then there was the the actual cost of negotiating the franchises that TOCs had (which themselves were millions of £). It was an accountant's paradise.
Very few of these costs existed under BR and wouldn't under a re-unified system either (private or nationalised). Partially as a result of all this Network Rail is nearly £60 billion in debt now, which is remarkable as it isn't even 20 years old, hasn't built any substantial new lines and only employs around 60,000 people.

Meanwhile SNCF - which is a unified network and does own all its track / stations / land, most of its trains and directly employs nearly all of its quarter of a million staff - is in less debt (50 billion euro, though the French government has reduced that to 38 bn recently), produces more revenue (30 billion euro vs 18 billion pound), has lower ticket prices and has a better, more modern and in many places much faster network.

Then there are the ticket prices. If I wanted to go today from Paris to Lyon on the 1855 train (2 hours on the TGV) it would cost 97 euro, or 137 euro first class. To go from Euston to Liverpool (2 hours 20 minutes on a Pendolino) today, on the 1800 train, its £196 standard or £255 first class.

The system we have is terrible for almost everyone, and really needs to be replaced with something that can stop burning cash at such a frightening rate.

SNCF is not really a good example as it is heavily subsidised by the French government, as an example, it ordered thousands of trains at a cost of billions that were too wide for its stations.

The U.K. used to have private rail companies, then Labour after the war consolidated them into four or five large grouping companies before nationalising the whole thing. It lost money in a big way. This carried on unto the 60’s when British Rail as it was then known was losing so much money that Beeching enacted a plan to eliminate stations and tracks that did not pay for themselves. A move from steam to diesel and electrification followed. Anyone of this era will tell you that BR was a basket case and it’s unions were a disgrace. You probably were not around at the time.

Then it went back to private ownership during the 90’s in order to stop the taxpayer subsidising a completely inefficient organisation. Even Blair did not reverse this.

So my question still stands...against your comment ”The railway could employ more people, cost less and be much more efficient, safer and convenient to use than it is now.”…how exactly, because no one else is doing it……
 
You've all probably heard over the years how the great barrier reef is dying and its due to climate change.. what you probably haven't heard is that it's been in recovery mode for a while and now it's at its biggest size ever.
 
You've all probably heard over the years how the great barrier reef is dying and its due to climate change.. what you probably haven't heard is that it's been in recovery mode for a while and now it's at its biggest size ever.


I imagine some 15 year old activist will now tell us that having more coral is a sign that the planet is about to self destruct……..
 
SNCF is not really a good example as it is heavily subsidised by the French government, as an example, it ordered thousands of trains at a cost of billions that were too wide for its stations.

The U.K. used to have private rail companies, then Labour after the war consolidated them into four or five large grouping companies before nationalising the whole thing. It lost money in a big way. This carried on unto the 60’s when British Rail as it was then known was losing so much money that Beeching enacted a plan to eliminate stations and tracks that did not pay for themselves. A move from steam to diesel and electrification followed. Anyone of this era will tell you that BR was a basket case and it’s unions were a disgrace. You probably were not around at the time.

Then it went back to private ownership during the 90’s in order to stop the taxpayer subsidising a completely inefficient organisation. Even Blair did not reverse this.

So my question still stands...against your comment ”The railway could employ more people, cost less and be much more efficient, safer and convenient to use than it is now.”…how exactly, because no one else is doing it……

Well, I can't say I have missed this.

SNCF is a good example of a unified network (as BR used to be, and indeed all of the precursor firms were as well). The trains you mention somewhat bizarrely as evidence of subsidy are in service now (I was on one two months ago), with the offending platforms having been altered, at a cost of millions rather than billions. As it happens, SNCF is subsidized much less than our network (TOCs, NR and the other stuff like Crossrail) is and most of the subsidy they did get went on building something worthwhile (the TGV network).

As for the UK, the 1923 grouping (which established the Big Four - LMS, LNER, GWR and SR) was brought about by the Tory / Liberal Coalition government's (led by Lloyd George) Railways Act 1921, and went effective under a Tory government (led by Bonar Law). The Big Four were occasionally profitable but were screwed over pretty permanently by the war - the network wasnt maintained except to repair war damage and the firms didn't get the earnings from the network being intensively used that would have allowed them to maintain pre-war levels of service after the war ended.

It was British Rail that was established by Labour (the Attlee government) and unfortunately it was not managed properly - electrification / dieselization saw money wasted on buying huge varieties of different types of locomotives, often bought solely to cover one area of the country and they badly misunderstood how containerization would work. Beeching's cuts too were mistakes, as he often assumed that because a line didn't earn money by itself it wasn't worth saving - ignoring the contribution it made to the wider network then and proving really quite maddening given what happened in the next thirty years (with many towns losing rail access just before they started to build thousands of new homes).

Most bizarrely of all is how you describe BR as a basket case that was only saved by privatization - the reality is that by improving its management in the 80s (under Thatcher's government) they got key parts of BR (InterCity and NetworkSouthEast) to a state of profitability which went on to help the rest of BR. They even started to bring back services and regenerate lines which have demonstrated their viability ever since; most famously the Chiltern services out of Marylebone (which is itself a tribute to that time). This was only stopped by issues caused by the late 80s / early 90s recession (falling passenger numbers, basically).

Instead of continuing with that prudent management and waiting for it to come back to profitability, Major instead sold BR off and us taxpayers quite quickly (after Hatfield) found ourselves subsidizing the railway far more than we did under BR - which is where we've been ever since.

Perhaps you weren't there either, then?
 
Well, I can't say I have missed this.

SNCF is a good example of a unified network (as BR used to be, and indeed all of the precursor firms were as well). The trains you mention somewhat bizarrely as evidence of subsidy are in service now (I was on one two months ago), with the offending platforms having been altered, at a cost of millions rather than billions. As it happens, SNCF is subsidized much less than our network (TOCs, NR and the other stuff like Crossrail) is and most of the subsidy they did get went on building something worthwhile (the TGV network).

As for the UK, the 1923 grouping (which established the Big Four - LMS, LNER, GWR and SR) was brought about by the Tory / Liberal Coalition government's (led by Lloyd George) Railways Act 1921, and went effective under a Tory government (led by Bonar Law). The Big Four were occasionally profitable but were screwed over pretty permanently by the war - the network wasnt maintained except to repair war damage and the firms didn't get the earnings from the network being intensively used that would have allowed them to maintain pre-war levels of service after the war ended.

It was British Rail that was established by Labour (the Attlee government) and unfortunately it was not managed properly - electrification / dieselization saw money wasted on buying huge varieties of different types of locomotives, often bought solely to cover one area of the country and they badly misunderstood how containerization would work. Beeching's cuts too were mistakes, as he often assumed that because a line didn't earn money by itself it wasn't worth saving - ignoring the contribution it made to the wider network then and proving really quite maddening given what happened in the next thirty years (with many towns losing rail access just before they started to build thousands of new homes).

Most bizarrely of all is how you describe BR as a basket case that was only saved by privatization - the reality is that by improving its management in the 80s (under Thatcher's government) they got key parts of BR (InterCity and NetworkSouthEast) to a state of profitability which went on to help the rest of BR. They even started to bring back services and regenerate lines which have demonstrated their viability ever since; most famously the Chiltern services out of Marylebone (which is itself a tribute to that time). This was only stopped by issues caused by the late 80s / early 90s recession (falling passenger numbers, basically).

Instead of continuing with that prudent management and waiting for it to come back to profitability, Major instead sold BR off and us taxpayers quite quickly (after Hatfield) found ourselves subsidizing the railway far more than we did under BR - which is where we've been ever since.

Perhaps you weren't there either, then?

I was there, were you ?….
 
I imagine some 15 year old activist will now tell us that having more coral is a sign that the planet is about to self destruct……..
If it keeps growing at it's current rate it will envelop the entire planet within 6 years.
In 2017 there was zero prospect of it recovering. I doubt well see any media covering the recovery much like the keep it quite news of Antarticas coldest winter ever being last winter.
 
If it keeps growing at it's current rate it will envelop the entire planet within 6 years.
In 2017 there was zero prospect of it recovering. I doubt well see any media covering the recovery much like the keep it quite news of Antarticas coldest winter ever being last winter.

I’m not sure it’s as positive as you are making out.
 

I’m not sure it’s as positive as you are making out.
I wonder are they the same experts who said 5 years ago that there is zero chance of recovery.. or the same experts who keep predicting an ice free artic, nobody told the artic that Al Gore said it was going to be ice free in 2014. Or are the same experts that said that a part of Antartica having a warm day in 2020 was proof of global warming but have kept their mouths shut on the record cold there last winter. Has there even been 1 prediction on climate change thats come true? Here's the extinction clock.
 
I wonder are they the same experts who said 5 years ago that there is zero chance of recovery.. or the same experts who keep predicting an ice free artic, nobody told the artic that Al Gore said it was going to be ice free in 2014. Or are the same experts that said that a part of Antartica having a warm day in 2020 was proof of global warming but have kept their mouths shut on the record cold there last winter. Has there even been 1 prediction on climate change thats come true? Here's the extinction clock.
Ah do you don’t believe in climate change. Sorry. Please ignore me.
 
I’m not interested in engaging with someone who doesn’t believe in man made climate change. Let’s just leave it here.
Fixed that for ya lad... you must be one of the experts un willing to hear about how the planet is not cooperating with the predictions. Sounds about right for the climate alarmist.
 
I imagine some 15 year old activist will now tell us that having more coral is a sign that the planet is about to self destruct……..
Or maybe the Smithsonian Institute?


I repeat, again, it's fine to not be a fan of Thumberg and deride her for being a child, but a big part of her patter is that society has ignored actual experts on this issue for decades, and your post is an example of doing just that.
 
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