Current Affairs Environmental Stuff

[spectateur]

Main thing here is that the protesters, love them or hate them, have brought a major critical issue back into people's minds.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

What if that ambulance that was blocked has resulted in someone dying so some retired geography teachers can sit on a road?

What if vital deliveries of equipment to hospitals or surgeries or something like that has been delayed?

Has this happened? Do you know whether this has been accounted for?

 

[BlueToff]

I'm behind the overarching topic of mitigating climate change where possible... but I have a very different view of what 'mitigating' and 'where possible' is.

I'm not behind their literal cause. This is what that is.

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Like all of these types of bells, they want things done exactly their way, any other way isn't correct. They don't care about logistics, costs or anything - the 'emergency' is all they care about. They don't care about democracy either - if the above is your manifesto, stand on a political platform with it or sod off.

Stuff 'em.

yeah sorry, meant the overarching theme of climate change etc. I'm not some global warming denier.

Agree with you there

 

[tsubaki]

They've blocked the M25 - they're committing a crime (blocking a public highway). Stopping people getting to work, stopping an ambulance getting through (what if that costs someone their life)

There's ways to go about things.

A lot of those ways to go about things have been tried, and have been ignored.

People drive cars knowing they pollute, knowing that pollution affects and ends lives, and knowing it costs them personally thousands a year.

I don’t think roadblocks are the best way either (the best action XR ever did was blocking the Murdoch papers at source) but to say they could do something else is to ignore that most of those things have been done.

 

[BlueToff]

Has this happened? Do you know whether this has been accounted for?

Of course not. But there is a video of an ambulance which was a) clearly held up by the queue, b) still moving slowly as police physically forced the protestors to move for it and c) it puts its lights and siren on straight away so it has to get somewhere fast.

 

[BlueToff]

A lot of those ways to go about things have been tried, and have been ignored.

People drive cars knowing they pollute, knowing that pollution affects and ends lives, and knowing it costs them personally thousands a year.

I don’t think roadblocks are the best way either (the best action XR ever did was blocking the Murdoch papers at source) but to say they could do something else is to ignore that most of those things have been done.

So you wouldn't take a job if you had to drive to it? Or you wouldn't get in that ambulance that needs to take you to be hospital? 'Nah you're alright, pollution'

Not everyone lives in a City like London with incredible transport links.

Of course pollution is an issue, of course we need to do something about it.

But it appears as @Tubey has says that this is about insulating houses, so what a weird way to protest for that.

 

[BlueToff]

Main thing here is that the protesters, love them or hate them, have brought a major critical issue back into people's minds.

tbf it's about insulating houses so probably not the issue most people thought they were bringing up by blocking a major motorway junction

 

[tsubaki]

So you wouldn't take a job if you had to drive to it? Or you wouldn't get in that ambulance that needs to take you to be hospital? 'Nah you're alright, pollution'

Not everyone lives in a City like London with incredible transport links.

Of course pollution is an issue, of course we need to do something about it.

But it appears as @Tubey has says that this is about insulating houses, so what a weird way to protest for that.

Please note I said “cars” (so an ambulance would be fine) and yes, if I had to drive to a job then I wouldn’t take it.

We as a country do need much better public transport links to allow people to ditch their cars. I can do that here, people outside London need that too.

 

[orchard]

I absolutely didn't say that did I?

They're committing a crime, you can't block a public highway. I'm not against them protesting. But they'd have much more leniency from people if they didn't do it in such daft ways.

Also, what if that ambulance that was blocked from getting through has resulted in someone dying?

Is that fair cop?

If you were stuck in a traffic jam for 2 hours, missed something that is absolutely vital for your job or livelihood, would you just be 'well I agree with what they're trying to say'?

They let it through, hopefully the police will keep a lane free of cars so the route to the blockade is free for any emergency.

Lots of people are dead and becoming so from air pollution, and that's not the only issue, is it?

I'm sure there are lots of people being prevented from doing what they perceive to be vital, but let's get perspective - vital is really those in need of water and shooting each other for generators in the SE US post-Ida where a lot of the infrastructure's gone for a Burton, with another shock incoming right now. It may only take a couple of climate disasters for us to be in a similar position.

 

[BlueToff]

Please note I said “cars” (so an ambulance would be fine) and yes, if I had to drive to a job then I wouldn’t take it.

We as a country do need much better public transport links to allow people to ditch their cars. I can do that here, people outside London need that too.

Then you must be nice and well off and live a comfortable life in that there London.

Of course, you live in one of the cities that for transport has one of the best links in the world. And that is clearly what you prefer and in the case of London, then I agree, it seems counter-intuitive to have cars (specifically) driving around the city adding to that level of pollution when there's such good links. But I'm sure you'd also recognise that not everyone who happens to live in a city also works in a city? They have to travel out of the city, and to places that just aren't accessible even with the best public transport links going.

In the case of the M25, doesn't it also serve all the towns and cities around London, and link it to the other motorways to get up and down the country?

 

[BlueToff]

They let it through, hopefully the police will keep a lane free of cars so the route to the blockade is free for any emergency.

Lots of people are dead and becoming so from air pollution, and that's not the only issue, is it?

I'm sure there are lots of people being prevented from doing what they perceive to be vital, but let's get perspective - vital is really those in need of water and shooting each other for generators in the SE US post-Ida where a lot of the infrastructure's gone for a Burton, with another shock incoming right now. It may only take a couple of climate disasters for us to be in a similar position.

Ah there we go, you get to judge what is vital again.

Bet you've missed that since lockdown ended didn't you?

I'd say an ambulance going anywhere is vital, personally. I'd also say a person's job and livelihood, to them, is vital.

 

[orchard]

Ah there we go, you get to judge what is vital again.

Bet you've missed that since lockdown ended didn't you?

I'd say an ambulance going anywhere is vital, personally. I'd also say a person's job and livelihood, to them, is vital.

I think i covered the ambulance issue first.

Vital: absolutely necessary; essential

 

[BlueToff]

I think i covered the ambulance issue first.

Vital: absolutely necessary; essential

Yes, someone's livelihood and job is absolutely necessary, essential to them.

If they can't do that because some people have blocked the road, I can understand their anger and frustration. I'm not saying anyone will have lost their job or anything like that, but it can't just be shrugged off as not being vital.

That's as bad as the Tory minister going on GMB today and just saying 'get a better job' to those on universal credit

 

[tsubaki]

Then you must be nice and well off and live a comfortable life in that there London.

Of course, you live in one of the cities that for transport has one of the best links in the world. And that is clearly what you prefer and in the case of London, then I agree, it seems counter-intuitive to have cars (specifically) driving around the city adding to that level of pollution when there's such good links. But I'm sure you'd also recognise that not everyone who happens to live in a city also works in a city? They have to travel out of the city, and to places that just aren't accessible even with the best public transport links going.

In the case of the M25, doesn't it also serve all the towns and cities around London, and link it to the other motorways to get up and down the country?

Not really - for a start, if I was nice and well off then chances are I would have a car, most people who aren’t nice and well off in London don’t have one.

Secondly places near / surrounding London do have good public transport links as well, it’s not like you get to the M25 and the railway ends.

You appear to be arguing from the point of own-car travel being vital. It might be for some, but they will be in a very small minority. Most people in the UK do have alternatives and, with help, could use them.

 

[orchard]

Yes, someone's livelihood and job is absolutely necessary, essential to them.

If they can't do that because some people have blocked the road, I can understand their anger and frustration. I'm not saying anyone will have lost their job or anything like that, but it can't just be shrugged off as not being vital.

That's as bad as the Tory minister going on GMB today and just saying 'get a better job' to those on universal credit

So nothing approaching even an incredibly loose definition of vital then.

I get where you're coming from, but we need perspective. Lots of things that are vital to our current economic model are detrimental to what's vital for our life. Being a meathead and shooting people doesn't resolve the dilemma.