End for Unsworth?

[blueloon]

You have contradicted yourself there because he is not playing adult football yet you have said 'I am sure that is what is happening to him at present'

Its an ongoing theme that players in our u23s stagnate as they are 'tutored' by Unsworth.

At 18 Morgan Feeney was playing every game for the under 23s and even getting the occasional first team appearance captaining England under 19s. 3 years on at 21 years old he has just gone out on his first loan spell. That 19-21 gap is vital for a players development and the u23 league and PE teacher like Unsworth just dosent help.

Dennis Adiniran made his professional league debut for Fulham at 17, 4 years later he is still playing for Everton under 23s, he should of had maximum 2 years playing at that level and then loaned out, Unsworth has kept hold of him again? Why?

Matty Foulds made an appearance for Bury in 2015 5 years ago!!!! He's now 22 and still not even had a sniff of going anywhere on loan

Nathan Markelo - a dutch under 20 international signed at 18 years old, ideal for a loan back to the Eredivise at some point? Nope! We have an important under 23 game coming up and he is on the slowest performance programme set by Unsworth ever! Is now 21 and not a sniff of a profesional appearance anywere

Lewis Gibson who was part of a successful England under 17 world cup winning team was the last outfield player in that squad to make his professional debut, thats not because he wasent good enough! 3 years in the under23s, and he only got his loan because he played hard ball with his contract!

Its not just that these lads are stagnating staying in the u23s for 3 or more seasons, they are also blocking the path for the under 18s who come through for atleast 12 months! Einer Iverson should be playing every single game for the under 23s but he's got 22 year olds blocking that path - he's played 6 games, joe Anderson is 19 but has Foulds keeping him from progressing or atleast having the opportunity.

And the ones that do come through early like kyle John & Ryan Astley are already in the Morgan Feeney zone of having played atleast 3 seasons at under 23 level but not wanting to be risked to send out on loan!

Its all abit of a mess!

Well I agree with a lot of that,some I don’t agree with so it’s a good debate. It’s not always Unsworth‘s fault , though I criticise him enough at times. Despite us having a reputation of playing most minutes for u21 players etc, it’s really been down to a few players, Davies, Kenny, DCL , Holgate, Benigime. In reality in the past two years we’ve not sustained that with the manager picking new younger players to play PL minutes, counter argument is that’s a lot of young players anyway. Somewhere in the vaults is me two years ago saying I thought Lewis Gibson would get minutes coming on at left back that season . Completely wrong of course , we used a seasoned pro instead, Cuco Martina. Then you could argue it didn’t do Galloway and Garbutt much good blooding them early at LB.

I agree with your “ bit of a mess”, but as ever I’m optimistic and believed we’ve changed things up, got rid of some young dead wood and have a much younger average age at u18 and 23 level. I think those changes will continue in the summer .

 

[Lanolin]

So do you think Ellis Simms will make his professional debut in the next 5 months?
Or do you think we will see another article from Unsworth saying that they are working hard with him at the training ground but he's still got a long way to go?

I've no idea, but then i've got no idea what sort of career the lad is likely to have either. For all the players you're handpicking to suit your argument there are just as many who have been loaned out (or played in our first team) and not progressed either.

If you were saying he doesn't look likely to be an international superstar based on his progression so far then i'd agree. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would expect a potential world beater to be a lot further down the road at 19 than he is. If you think that there are strikers who've turned out to be good PL players because they were playing in the Conference North or the Moroccan 2nd division against men they were 19, then we'll just agree to disagree, because it's an utterly ludicrous suggestion.

 

[Raino85]

Well I agree with a lot of that,some I don’t agree with so it’s a good debate. It’s not always Unsworth‘s fault , though I criticise him enough at times. Despite us having a reputation of playing most minutes for u21 players etc, it’s really been down to a few players, Davies, Kenny, DCL , Holgate, Benigime. In reality in the past two years we’ve not sustained that with the manager picking new younger players to play PL minutes, counter argument is that’s a lot of young players anyway. Somewhere in the vaults is me two years ago saying I thought Lewis Gibson would get minutes coming on at left back that season . Completely wrong of course , we used a seasoned pro instead, Cuco Martina. Then you could argue it didn’t do Galloway and Garbutt much good blooding them early at LB.

I agree with your “ bit of a mess”, but as ever I’m optimistic and believed we’ve changed things up, got rid of some young dead wood and have a much younger average age at u18 and 23 level. I think those changes will continue in the summer .

I see were you are coming from too (hugs all round)
Gibson was obvious he needed that loan, and it was good to see him holding the club responsible abit by hanging fire on a contract until he saw a clear path.
Loans dont always work though, you can get stuck with your Penningtons etc
I was looking at last seasons under 18s top scorers and 6 of the top 10 have either made there debut for there club or made appearances on loan somewhere, 2 of the ones that hadent were Simms & Phillips for us!

Again as you say though, its not all Unsworths fault, we have seen the likes of Martina & Niasse on the bench at times this season ahead of the likes of Gibson & Simms, and it appears whenever a player returns from injury or suspension, Anthony gordon is usualy the first one to be took out of the match day squad. Thats not Unsworths fault

 

[Raino85]

I've no idea, but then i've got no idea what sort of career the lad is likely to have either. For all the players you're handpicking to suit your argument there are just as many who have been loaned out (or played in our first team) and not progressed either.

If you were saying he doesn't look likely to be an international superstar based on his progression so far then i'd agree. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would expect a potential world beater to be a lot further down the road at 19 than he is. If you think that there are strikers who've turned out to be good PL players because they were playing in the Conference North or the Moroccan 2nd division against men they were 19, then we'll just agree to disagree, because it's an utterly ludicrous suggestion.

I think you are missing the point!
Its pretty obvious EVERY player that comes form an academy that gets loaned out is not going to come back a better player, that can be down to a whole load of influences- attitude, application, quality, injury etc etc etc.
But i'm still saying find me a player that wasen't playing men's football at Simms's age and actually forged a decent career for themselves?
I'm also not saying Simms will be a star if he would be loaned out, its just we are not giving him, or other players in that under 23s the best opportunity to fulfil there potential.

 

[Lanolin]

I think you are missing the point!
Its pretty obvious EVERY player that comes form an academy that gets loaned out is not going to come back a better player, that can be down to a whole load of influences- attitude, application, quality, injury etc etc etc.
But i'm still saying find me a player that wasen't playing men's football at Simms's age and actually forged a decent career for themselves?
I'm also not saying Simms will be a star if he would be loaned out, its just we are not giving him, or other players in that under 23s the best opportunity to fulfil there potential.

No I do get what you're saying, I just thinking you're simplifying it a bit too much. If a player is at a league 2 club, or a German 3rd division club, then they'll find it easier to get into the team. That doesn't mean that loaning someone out to those levels is the right thing to do though, does it? It would mean we could satisfy your criteria of ticking the 'played against men' box, but it wouldn't necessarily make Simms any better as a player, which is what you're saying you want to do. It's really not that unlikely that working with our coaches on the aspects of his game that we want to improve will make him a better player than going on loan to League Two and playing 10 games.

Obviously at some point he needs to play games if he's going to step up, but just after his 19th birthday isn't too late by any stretch of the imagination. Tanganga has just come into the Spurs side not long before he turns 21, with no loans. He's following the exact same path as Harry Winks at the same club, while Walker-Peters has just gone on loan for the first time at 22. He made his senior debut when he was 20 too. There's sometimes a tendency to talk about as if we're doing things wrong as a club, but if you look around other clubs they're mostly doing the exact same.

 

[Raino85]

No I do get what you're saying, I just thinking you're simplifying it a bit too much. If a player is at a league 2 club, or a German 3rd division club, then they'll find it easier to get into the team. That doesn't mean that loaning someone out to those levels is the right thing to do though, does it? It would mean we could satisfy your criteria of ticking the 'played against men' box, but it wouldn't necessarily make Simms any better as a player, which is what you're saying you want to do. It's really not that unlikely that working with our coaches on the aspects of his game that we want to improve will make him a better player than going on loan to League Two and playing 10 games.

Obviously at some point he needs to play games if he's going to step up, but just after his 19th birthday isn't too late by any stretch of the imagination. Tanganga has just come into the Spurs side not long before he turns 21, with no loans. He's following the exact same path as Harry Winks at the same club, while Walker-Peters has just gone on loan for the first time at 22. He made his senior debut when he was 20 too. There's sometimes a tendency to talk about as if we're doing things wrong as a club, but if you look around other clubs they're mostly doing the exact same.

I did think of how Spurs bring there players tough late during this discussion, especially Winks, who's actually 33 this year but everyone thinks hes like 20!
Pochetino had that notion that you commented on, that he would rather have them training with the first team than being coached by other managers/coaches etc. And just because they do it the same as us, dosent mean its right (Mourinho likes bringing a kid out of nowhere into the team to try and show up the others - McTominey at United).
You also fail to mention Spur's most successful youth product of recent generations Harry Kane took the route via lower league loans with varying degrees of success, but he never wanted to sit still, he didnt want to play reserve football, he wanted to get out there
Again, i said there is no exact science to it! And there are failures to the whole getting them game time at this age. Look at highly rated kids like Devante Cole, Hallum Hope, Izzy Brown who got his loans early, but havent been good enough.
And i'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this season, but do you think next season it would be advantageous to keep Simms in the under 23s again? Doing the same things he did the year before, with that comfort blanket around him?

 

[Lanolin]

I did think of how Spurs bring there players tough late during this discussion, especially Winks, who's actually 33 this year but everyone thinks hes like 20!
Pochetino had that notion that you commented on, that he would rather have them training with the first team than being coached by other managers/coaches etc. And just because they do it the same as us, dosent mean its right (Mourinho likes bringing a kid out of nowhere into the team to try and show up the others - McTominey at United).
You also fail to mention Spur's most successful youth product of recent generations Harry Kane took the route via lower league loans with varying degrees of success, but he never wanted to sit still, he didnt want to play reserve football, he wanted to get out there
Again, i said there is no exact science to it! And there are failures to the whole getting them game time at this age. Look at highly rated kids like Devante Cole, Hallum Hope, Izzy Brown who got his loans early, but havent been good enough.
And i'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this season, but do you think next season it would be advantageous to keep Simms in the under 23s again? Doing the same things he did the year before, with that comfort blanket around him?

I didn't 'fail to mention' Kane any more than you failed to mention Dowell. As you said, there's no exact science, and the fact that Kane followed a different path to Winks is just further confirmation that different development plans can work for different players, and therefore there's nothing inherently wrong with what is happening with Simms.

In answer to the last question, again, it all depends how good he is. If he's going to end up in League One then I don't really see what harm it does to give him another year here to see if he pushes on and then letting him get on with his career at the appropriate level at the positively ancient age of 20. If we genuinely have hopes that he's going to be a player here, then you'd think he'd need to step up a level and be tested a bit more.

 

[davids]

If you look at any other half decent striker in the league now! They were not playing under 23 football at 19! They were playing in the mens game.
DCL had made his Everton debut by now as well as appearances for Sheffield United & a loan at Stalybridge, and he's been a slow learner.

Moise Kean still has alot to learn yet he had played a full Serie A Season at Verona & a bit part season at Juve by this time

Even look at bang average strikers like Troy Deeny - he was playing week in week out for Walsall younger than Simms
Danny Welbeck was getting minutes at Preston at 19.

I challenge anyone to find me a premier league forward who wasen't playing men's football of some sort at Ellis Simm's age!

I'm not writing the lad off, its more criticism of Unsworth's 'He needs to learn how to run the channels' way of things.
i'd argue its selfish of him to keep him here for the second half of the season, a league 2 side would of given him 10 games between now and the end of the season

That would be surmising that Unsworth had sole control over who stays and plays U23 football,who trains with the first team and who is offered for loan.In fact I doubt if he gets much imput at all.Brands,Ancelotti and his staff I'm sure will have the main say.

 

[andy4efc]

But it's up to the first team managers to pick them, Simms has bagged more goals than any other player in youth level for the past few years.. yet no sign of him on the senior squad, given his goal scoring record I'd say he'd have been had a chance at every other team in Europe at this stage but not at Everton.

How mcuh have you seen of simms? Whenever ive seen the u21's, he looks nowhere near ready despite being a good finisher. Players have to be on that cusp for a manager to pick them.

 

[Brisan123]

I did think of how Spurs bring there players tough late during this discussion, especially Winks, who's actually 33 this year but everyone thinks hes like 20!
Pochetino had that notion that you commented on, that he would rather have them training with the first team than being coached by other managers/coaches etc. And just because they do it the same as us, dosent mean its right (Mourinho likes bringing a kid out of nowhere into the team to try and show up the others - McTominey at United).
You also fail to mention Spur's most successful youth product of recent generations Harry Kane took the route via lower league loans with varying degrees of success, but he never wanted to sit still, he didnt want to play reserve football, he wanted to get out there
Again, i said there is no exact science to it! And there are failures to the whole getting them game time at this age. Look at highly rated kids like Devante Cole, Hallum Hope, Izzy Brown who got his loans early, but havent been good enough.
And i'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this season, but do you think next season it would be advantageous to keep Simms in the under 23s again? Doing the same things he did the year before, with that comfort blanket around him?

Harry winks is 24 not 33

 

[Raino85]

Harry winks is 24 not 33

Sarcasm not your strongpoint?

 

[Brisan123]

Sarcasm not your strongpoint?

Maths not yours ??

 

[catcherintherye]

I've no idea, but then i've got no idea what sort of career the lad is likely to have either. For all the players you're handpicking to suit your argument there are just as many who have been loaned out (or played in our first team) and not progressed either.

If you were saying he doesn't look likely to be an international superstar based on his progression so far then i'd agree. There are always exceptions to the rule, but I would expect a potential world beater to be a lot further down the road at 19 than he is. If you think that there are strikers who've turned out to be good PL players because they were playing in the Conference North or the Moroccan 2nd division against men they were 19, then we'll just agree to disagree, because it's an utterly ludicrous suggestion.

Simms I find a bit of an odd one really. He joined with a bit of fanfare within the game. He was quite well thought of at Manchester City and United were looking closely at him. In truth any 16 year old at Manchester City or Chelsea are likely to be a decent player. They probably are the two stand outs up to under 16. We are certainly in the top handful of teams too but there is a bit of a gap.

When I first saw him I remember being quite underwhelmed. I don't think he did a lot as an under 17. He looked lumbersome, a bit uninterested and lacking in a lot of the basics. Last season as an under 18 he kicked on amorously and he has had a good season this year too, scoring a lot of goals.

In general I agree with the prognosis that by 19 we need to be making decisions on players. In general I think we have been too predisposed in the past to keeping players on. There is some suggestion much of that has been driven by Unsworth, and Unsworth has certainly made noises to wanting to do that. A lot of that has been painted as him wanting to bolster his own performance. I'm not so sure on that. I just think he probably had a bit too much loyalty to certain players and also had a misguided view that if we kept players together long enough you give them the best opportunity to make the first team squad.

If I was being honest I think he's still been a bit stuck in the pre-Moshiri era of Everton. Under Martinez it did look like efforts were being made to try to give more players opportunities from the academy. Pre Moshiri's money, and the club being unable to sign as much as we had, it would have been very possible that the likes of Dowell, Kenny, Williams, Baningime etc may have seen a lot more game time. There's also a fairly reasonable argument to say they wouldn't have been much worse than the players who were in the team, but thats another matter. Either way though, the culture has changed and I think it's taken Unsworth time to adjust to that.

I digress slightly though. On Simms I do think you get exceptions. You will get the occasional player who it's hard to make a clear decision at 19. He's very raw but does have a clear ability to score goals, which is a unique skill.

 

[mrb85]

Simms I find a bit of an odd one really. He joined with a bit of fanfare within the game. He was quite well thought of at Manchester City and United were looking closely at him. In truth any 16 year old at Manchester City or Chelsea are likely to be a decent player. They probably are the two stand outs up to under 16. We are certainly in the top handful of teams too but there is a bit of a gap.

When I first saw him I remember being quite underwhelmed. I don't think he did a lot as an under 17. He looked lumbersome, a bit uninterested and lacking in a lot of the basics. Last season as an under 18 he kicked on amorously and he has had a good season this year too, scoring a lot of goals.

In general I agree with the prognosis that by 19 we need to be making decisions on players. In general I think we have been too predisposed in the past to keeping players on. There is some suggestion much of that has been driven by Unsworth, and Unsworth has certainly made noises to wanting to do that. A lot of that has been painted as him wanting to bolster his own performance. I'm not so sure on that. I just think he probably had a bit too much loyalty to certain players and also had a misguided view that if we kept players together long enough you give them the best opportunity to make the first team squad.

If I was being honest I think he's still been a bit stuck in the pre-Moshiri era of Everton. Under Martinez it did look like efforts were being made to try to give more players opportunities from the academy. Pre Moshiri's money, and the club being unable to sign as much as we had, it would have been very possible that the likes of Dowell, Kenny, Williams, Baningime etc may have seen a lot more game time. There's also a fairly reasonable argument to say they wouldn't have been much worse than the players who were in the team, but thats another matter. Either way though, the culture has changed and I think it's taken Unsworth time to adjust to that.

I digress slightly though. On Simms I do think you get exceptions. You will get the occasional player who it's hard to make a clear decision at 19. He's very raw but does have a clear ability to score goals, which is a unique skill.

'Amorously'?

 

[catcherintherye]

'Amorously'?

I blame the computers autocorrect!