Dyche and Thelwell

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

….i don’t think anybody will argue that it’s more difficult finding quality with a very limited budget but I believe that’s when a DoF/Manager combination really earn their corn. The PL and even Everton are still an attractive proposition and it’s a big old world out there.

There’s really no excuse for buying poor footballers.

The other irony is, I don’t believe we have a single Academy recruit regularly playing (since Gordon left).

No, there's plenty of excuses for buying poor footballers, just as people seem to find plenty of excuses for poor managers lately. If you think Everton have been an attractive proposition over the last couple of years, perhaps try to look at it without the perspective of being a fan. Our net spend the last couple of years has been negative, so even if a player would love to join us, if we don't have the money, they ain't coming. Last season we only secured Beto because of a delayed transfer fee.

 

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

I'd have no problem if he got rid of both and we start from scratch , in fact it's my preferred option.

Thelwell is far from perfect but he has had a negative net spend , reduced the wage bill and still given Dyche a slightly better squad than he had before. That merits some acknowledgement. However it's also right to say that the squad lacks balance especially in attack and full back.

I can see why TFG might keep Thelwell on.

However there is no case whatsoever for keeping Dyche on. Everything that he does inhibits this teams ability to play progressive, attractive, attacking football. The likes of him Pulis , Alladyce and Warnock are finished as PL managers , thank god.

Summed up what I wanted to say much better hah.

 

[jazzy]

…..Dyche joined Everton in January ‘23, Thelwell Feb ‘22. In an effort to determine if Dyche and Thelwell are ‘on the same page’, I’ve had a quick look at the current squad and player investment since that date. I reckon only the following have been brought in and established themselves as 1st teamer since that date;

Young (free summer ‘23)
Harrison (loan summer ‘23)
Ndiaye (bought summer ‘24)

These are the others brought in during the Dyche/Thelwell regime that are yet to establish themselves in the first team;

Beto (bought Summer ‘23)
Chermiti (bought Summer ‘23)
O’Brien (bought Summer ‘24)
Mangala (loan Summer ‘24)
Iroegbunam (bought Summer ‘24)
Broja (loan Summer ‘24)
Lindstrom (loan Summer ‘24)

Just 3 out of 10 players (in the current squad) brought in during their tenure have established themselves in the team, one of whom is a loanee and the other aged 39 on a free doesn’t suggest they are working together on transfers. I’d suggest 4 others brought in previously by Thelwell can be considered 1st teamers under Dyche;

Tarkowski (free Summer ‘22)
Gueye (re-signed Summer ‘22)
Garner (bought Summer ‘22)
McNeil (bought Summer ‘22)

Probably wasted 30mins of my Sunday morning on this post. Other established first teamers; Pickford, Mykolenko, Branthwaite, Doucoure, DCL pre-date the Thelwell/Dyche regimes, as do Patterson, Coleman and Keane.

Not included players who have come and gone like Onana and Danjuma. Apologies if I’ve missed some obvious ones but I find it all a bit underwhelming.

Players can't be "established first teamers" if the clown of a manager doesn't pick them.

 

[Blue peter]

….i don’t think anybody will argue that it’s more difficult finding quality with a very limited budget but I believe that’s when a DoF/Manager combination really earn their corn. The PL and even Everton are still an attractive proposition and it’s a big old world out there.

There’s really no excuse for buying poor footballers.

The other irony is, I don’t believe we have a single Academy recruit regularly playing (since Gordon left).

I think that’s the first time mate where you’ve acknowledged that players brought in are the responsibility of both the DoF and the manager. Whilst no one truly knows what happens, I think it would be madness if the DoF just brought in who he wanted to the dismay of the manager - that’s why I think both have the power of veto. In the absence of any certain knowledge around what happens, if the recruitment has been poor, then they are both culpable including the scouting team.

 

[Blue peter]

No, there's plenty of excuses for buying poor footballers, just as people seem to find plenty of excuses for poor managers lately. If you think Everton have been an attractive proposition over the last couple of years, perhaps try to look at it without the perspective of being a fan. Our net spend the last couple of years has been negative, so even if a player would love to join us, if we don't have the money, they ain't coming. Last season we only secured Beto because of a delayed transfer fee.

I was encouraged by the rumoured interest in some players like Kudos and Luiz - we just couldn’t compete financially but then we buy NDiaye so I think that profile of player is encouraging. Be interesting to see what we do, if Thelwell remains in post with fewer PSR restrictions and a little more money

 

[Hinchcliffe's Corner]

I was encouraged by the rumoured interest in some players like Kudos and Luiz - we just couldn’t compete financially but then we buy NDiaye so I think that profile of player is encouraging. Be interesting to see what we do, if Thelwell remains in post with fewer PSR restrictions and a little more money

I just don't know if Thelwell is good or not at his job because firstly we have had such a limited budget for the majority of his time and secondly Kenwright stuck his nose into everything. He's certainly not an elite and sought after DoF, but that's probably why he's here, a bit like everyone else on the payroll. People just need someone to blame when they're unable to be honest about how their club favourites are doing.

 

[maccavennie]

…..Dyche joined Everton in January ‘23, Thelwell Feb ‘22. In an effort to determine if Dyche and Thelwell are ‘on the same page’, I’ve had a quick look at the current squad and player investment since that date. I reckon only the following have been brought in and established themselves as 1st teamer since that date;

Young (free summer ‘23)
Harrison (loan summer ‘23)
Ndiaye (bought summer ‘24)

These are the others brought in during the Dyche/Thelwell regime that are yet to establish themselves in the first team;

Beto (bought Summer ‘23)
Chermiti (bought Summer ‘23)
O’Brien (bought Summer ‘24)
Mangala (loan Summer ‘24)
Iroegbunam (bought Summer ‘24)
Broja (loan Summer ‘24)
Lindstrom (loan Summer ‘24)

Just 3 out of 10 players (in the current squad) brought in during their tenure have established themselves in the team, one of whom is a loanee and the other aged 39 on a free doesn’t suggest they are working together on transfers. I’d suggest 4 others brought in previously by Thelwell can be considered 1st teamers under Dyche;

Tarkowski (free Summer ‘22)
Gueye (re-signed Summer ‘22)
Garner (bought Summer ‘22)
McNeil (bought Summer ‘22)

Probably wasted 30mins of my Sunday morning on this post. Other established first teamers; Pickford, Mykolenko, Branthwaite, Doucoure, DCL pre-date the Thelwell/Dyche regimes, as do Patterson, Coleman and Keane.

Not included players who have come and gone like Onana and Danjuma. Apologies if I’ve missed some obvious ones but I find it all a bit underwhelming.

Great post and it shows us 2 issues.

It shows Thelwell is really hit and miss in his recruitment and shows Dyche to be stubborn and simply continue as much as possible with his tried and tested group of 14 players.

I've stated time and time again that I don't think Thelwell is a good enough DoF, BUT what I would like to say is I've been encouraged this summer with his recruitment for the u18s and u21s. Now, I don't know if that's because he's now got people in place which seems to have taken 2-3 years, or it's actually him out and about sorting these deals. But I think Graham was quite a coup, Loney looks a big strapping lad and if we can coach him right we could have a player on our hands. Clarke has hit the ground running, Benjamin has hit the ground running, we got a big centre half from Wimbledon as well. So, that side of recruitment looks like there's a bit of a plan in place.

But, for where we are as a first team, dropping 12m on Chermiti and 16m on O'Brien with a manager who certainly has his trusted soldiers in those positions (Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Keane, DCL) shows where there's a massive breakdown in communication and ultimately for that reason I'd like them both punted into the sun as it shows Thelwell hasn't got balls to tell Dyche to up his game and start using his squad more.

 

[Eggs]

Players can't be "established first teamers" if the clown of a manager doesn't pick them.

….i get that but players also have to earn a place. I’m not convinced any of the fringe players have done enough to do that.

It’s just a very poor squad that’s short on quality but hopefully has enough to avoid the drop.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

I’m on record as supporting Dyche but it’s been largely dire this season. I hoped he’d make us better but it’s not looking that way, I can’t defend or make excuses for performances like today. I think his anchievement last season was terrific but I fully understand posters who want him out and have no issues if that happens.

I’m on record as not being a fan of Thelwell but know lots think he’s doing a good job. I don’t. It doesn’t mean I have an agenda, I’d like him to be good. I don’t get he can only sign players on ‘pay nothing up front, pay later deals’, it’s no excuse to sign poor footballers. I don’t get he has little money to spend, DoFs are paid lots of money to find players within the budget they have.

I think it’s important the Manager and DoF are on the same page but I thought there were a few telling quotes tonight from Dyche suggesting they’re not.

He said; “I like Fulham, they have recruited really well”, suggesting we haven’t. Asked why he doesn’t play 4-4-2 as he often did at Burnley, he said “I don’t have the personnel to do it here’.

So, maybe there’s an issue here. Maybe it’s not Dyche and Thelwell, maybe it’s more Dyche v Thelwell. Interesting what the new owner does as these are the key appointments in any club.

Synopsis
You think Dyche is great .
But you think Thelwell is rubbish .
I am diametrically opposed to your position on this issue.
There endeth the conversation.

 

[Eggs]

Synopsis
You think Dyche is great .
But you think Thelwell is rubbish .
I am diametrically opposed to your position on this issue.
There endeth the conversation.

…I certainly don’t think Dyche is ‘great’, yesterday was a dire watch. You’re right in suggesting I’m not convinced about Thelwell, I think the squad is very poor.

 

[tirion]

I don't think it was a Dyche instruction to knock it long today. I think Pickford, Young and Tarkowski realised playing out wasn't working and started knocking it long. Dyche is a Sunday League manager, the ground was quiet at times today and he was shouting "Play... play.. play" when we had it at the back and "heads" whilst pointing at his temples when they had it. He's hopelessly out of his depth in the Premier League of today.

I don't think it was a Dyche instruction to knock it long today. I think Pickford, Young and Tarkowski realised playing out wasn't working and started knocking it long. Dyche is a Sunday League manager, the ground was quiet at times today and he was shouting "Play... play.. play" when we had it at the back and "heads" whilst pointing at his temples when they had it. He's hopelessly out of his depth in the Premier League of today.

Professional players are actually very good at playing the way they are told, prime example being Barcelona and the more direct way they play since the arrival of Flick, this Everton team are completely in the image of Dyche and his outdated way of playing

 

[Drico]

The new owners will bin the pair of them off in a heartbeat is my guess.

Dyche saying he still hasn't spoken to anyone from TFG at Thursdays press conference I think is quite telling. I'd assume even a small introduction would have happened by now

When the change comes, both must go.

A full reboot of the club is needed. Neither would get the jobs they currently hold if the Friedkins advertised it openly - which they eventually will.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

…I certainly don’t think Dyche is ‘great’, yesterday was a dire watch. You’re right in suggesting I’m not convinced about Thelwell, I think the squad is very poor.

I don’t think the squad is anywhere near as poor as people are painting it.
I also think Thelwell has done reasonably well under the constraints he has had to work with.
He has implemented changes throughout the club ( his responsibilities extend to all levels of football at the club, of course)
But at this point all opinions remain entirely subjective, without concrete evidence of any sustainable improvement.

 

[blueblue]

I think Thelwell has done a very good job in his time at Everton, a job that has two completely different aspects to it.

Firstly , he has cleared out almost completely the bloated over paid squad of players that were landing us in no small part with PSR issues. He has trimmed the squad and the wage bill to a point where we now have a smallish squad.
We are now(we are told ) PSR compliant without selling any important player this summer.

Second, with little or no money to spend he has been wheeling and dealing in the market trying to assemble players for the manager on a shoestring. Ashley Young is the most obvious case, a 39 year old signed because we have no money to spend.
At the same time he has brought in O Brien, Iroegbunam, Garner, McNell, Ndiaye for very little money, all young players that all seem to be good value for money.
Broja and Lindstrom may be added to that list in time.
There have been failures as well but everybody has those, very few for KT though.

 

[blueblue]

I don’t think the squad is anywhere near as poor as people are painting it.
I also think Thelwell has done reasonably well under the constraints he has had to work with.
He has implemented changes throughout the club ( his responsibilities extend to all levels of football at the club, of course)
But at this point all opinions remain entirely subjective, without concrete evidence of any sustainable improvement.

I tend to agree.

I respect the job Dyche has done in difficult circumstances but every week I am more convinced his future is elsewhere after this season.