Cricket

[the sniderman]

i would like to apologize to any fine people of india reading old empire slants against the quality of their third world earth. the englishman expects that anywhere he likes to walk to be a red carpet and if not then at least a fine lawn buddies

 

[catcherintherye]

A small point to start

No there just is no equivalence whatsoever on weather, in india it is hot almost all the time at the traditional venues.

In England it can be hot, cold, wet, dry or steaming hot all on the same day anytime anywhere almost all the time.

In England the weather is variable even in summertime, in India's traditional venues in their test playing season it just isn't anything remotely like variable. I think I've detected a difference between the two tbh .

I wouldn't argue over percentages in India, India are a formidable force at home and have the weapons to demolish most sides at home, the last three tours and the one test here have an aggregate score India 6 England 3, so discounting draws a win percentage in India of :- India 66% - England 33%

- their away record in England has been pretty deplorable for the last three tours losing almost every test (won 2 lost 11) discounting draws, a win percentage in England of :- England 82% - India 18%

Andrew Strauss made the point that this is now looking like a day four wicket which virtually is game over. Kohli said he expected the first morning and into the afternoon section to be by far the only time to bat as it should go quickly. This is a toss you HAD to win to have any chance at all and that applies to India too, such is the wicket.

I can give you the result now as no innings after this will be of much consequence, England may not even save the notional follow on target, even if India declared now not that I think enforcement is likely anyway, as you just don't in India and why would you?

My point re the weather, is it has a direct/indirect affect on the game in different countries. In England ore directly re swing, but in India the weather leads to dry pitches that break up.

I can see an argument for a perfectly fair game, with no deteroriation or change of conditions but it's not a uniquely Indian issue and I'm also not sure how you would do it.

I would probably go along with Strauss looks a day 3/4 pitch to me today. Rohit batted wonderfully well. In many ways though, that is more of an equaliser. England should be able to get India out around 350 ish. Thats very different to facing 550+ on a similar pitch to the one today. In many ways it's a fairer game, as it's been a hard pitch to bat on from around tea onwards.

I agree with the issues you are raising though, it's more that I'm not sure how you get around them. It's a second game at the same venue, on a worn pitch, in a hot dry country. How do you get around such issues? You could just say each team gets to decide on alternate games, but that will just lead to home groundsman also doctoring pitches wouldn't it?

 

[Chris O'Connor]

I am really not in favour of an approach that writes a game off before a ball is bowled.

Wow, noone with any sense plays the match with that approach, you battle even though it's s foregone conclusion and you believe until it's lost. Of course the players will do their utmost and the captain has to be ultra positive.

It almost certainly makes little difference but they must have the right attitude.

I'm against such importance bring on the toss too, but I'm afraid this toss has delivered an advantage that makes the task pretty daunting. It probably needs a Sri Lanka to throw it away to win under such circumstances.

Unfortunately India aren't anything like as hapless as Sri Lanka

 

[Chris O'Connor]

My point re the weather, is it has a direct/indirect affect on the game in different countries. In England ore directly re swing, but in India the weather leads to dry pitches that break up.

I can see an argument for a perfectly fair game, with no deteroriation or change of conditions but it's not a uniquely Indian issue and I'm also not sure how you would do it.

I would probably go along with Strauss looks a day 3/4 pitch to me today. Rohit batted wonderfully well. In many ways though, that is more of an equaliser. England should be able to get India out around 350 ish. Thats very different to facing 550+ on a similar pitch to the one today. In many ways it's a fairer game, as it's been a hard pitch to bat on from around tea onwards.

I agree with the issues you are raising though, it's more that I'm not sure how you get around them. It's a second game at the same venue, on a worn pitch, in a hot dry country. How do you get around such issues? You could just say each team gets to decide on alternate games, but that will just lead to home groundsman also doctoring pitches wouldn't it?

Unfortunately there isn't a solution I'm afraid more especially in these Covid bubble pandemic times, we're lucky to have tests at all tbh, so I'm not advocating any change whatsoever for now and we do have to just put up with a toss being absolutely crucial. I know on occasion it's benefitted us in England with a pitch under covers in a rained off first day producing massively seam friendly conditions but that's more to do with weather and less under our control, it's not so advantageous every single test.

Joe Root acknowledged the pet the toss played in our victory so it's really only fair that he acknowledges the part the toss here played in our defeat, it's not absolutely certain but not far short of it.

 

[catcherintherye]

Wow, noone with any sense plays the match with that approach, you battle even though it's s foregone conclusion and you believe until it's lost. Of course the players will do their utmost and the captain has to be ultra positive.

It almost certainly makes little difference but they must have the right attitude.

I'm against such importance bring on the toss too, but I'm afraid this toss has delivered an advantage that makes the task pretty daunting. It probably needs a Sri Lanka to throw it away to win under such circumstances.

Unfortunately India aren't anything like as hapless as Sri Lanka

But the way you speak, it's as if you might as well give up if you lose the toss. I don't agree. It's important, but you still need to play good cricket.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

But the way you speak, it's as if you might as well give up if you lose the toss. I don't agree. It's important, but you still need to play good cricket.

No I'm not speaking as someone out in India playing the test, I'm here at home watching it, it's important not to confuse the two. The attitude of the players has to be ultra positive and to believe to the last moment.

It's important that you still play good cricket.

 

[catcherintherye]

No I'm not speaking as someone out in India playing the test, I'm here at home watching it, it's important not to confuse the two. The attitude of the players has to be ultra positive and to believe to the last moment.

It's important that you still play good cricket.

Fair enough mate. Sorry I just read it from like a what England should do. What you do or don't do is absolutely up to you. Apologies I just misread it.

 

[BigMick]

They tried to solve the toss advantage in county cricket by giving the visiting captain the option to bowl first, with the toss only taking place if he declined. An acceptance was known as an' uncontested toss'. It was brought in to try to deter counties from preparing excessively seamer-friendly pitches, the opposite of what is found in India.

Could a solution be to give captain's the option to bat first? If so it would have to apply to all test matches, not just those in India.

Incidentally, the uncontested toss in county cricket was abandoned last season and there are, as far as I know, no plans to reinstate it. Personally, I didn't think it worked and was glad to see the back of it.

 

[Chris O'Connor]

They tried to solve the toss advantage in county cricket by giving the visiting captain the option to bowl first, with the toss only taking place if he declined. An acceptance was known as an' uncontested toss'. It was brought in to try to deter counties from preparing excessively seamer-friendly pitches, the opposite of what is found in India.

Could a solution be to give captain's the option to bat first? If so it would have to apply to all test matches, not just those in India.

Incidentally, the uncontested toss in county cricket was abandoned last season and there are, as far as I know, no plans to reinstate it. Personally, I didn't think it worked and was glad to see the back of it.

Yeah the experiment largely backfired at county level, you need to prepare wickets were a result is likely and it's so easy to be scared of giving the opponents an advantage so in the end you go one of two ways

Make the wickets substandard from ball one so noone can survive or alternatively make it like a road so it lasts the game and there's no result, the draw isn't worth it in county cricket though. In the end it didn't do what was intended and had to be abandoned.

At international level unintended consequences would undoubtedly happen. Home teams don't want two day tests but frightened the lack of a toss would confer too much of an advantage to the tourists, would instruct the groundsman to prepare something that lasts for both sides.

Of course this would be a disaster, wickets would be roads with little deterioration so batting last is ok. High scoring draws the norm and boredom all round, not a solution.

I think most of the time the status quo is acceptable, but with Covid and India losing the first at the same ground, the inevitable happened. This wicket was poorly prepared because they wanted it to deteriorate early on. They believed they had the team to exploit a dreadful turning wicket even if artificially created. India needed the toss to go their way to guarantee winning but thought they stood a chance if not, but while England's spinners are clearly not of the same standard they are definitely good enough to exploit a massive advantage as the first test showed.

Monitored preparation may be an answer to prepare standard wickets that maintain their character, so turners in India, seamers England and hard and bouncy Australia, but aren't so blatantly prepared to make result wickets

This test could be over in three days maximum if India bothered to enforce, but conditions and heat say they'll bat again no matter, you just don't enforce in India. So maybe four days but horribly one sided - tomorrow will be impossible never mind later.

Michael Vaughan reckons while the total of say 350 might look smaller than 580, it's at least as formidable and because the wicket is that much worse makes winning the toss even more of an advantage than the first test. (admittedly it is Vaughany the controversial rent a quote specialist).

 

[marekb]

[Poor language removed] off India. Cheating sods

haha that was my thought too.

 

[BigMick]

Yeah the experiment largely backfired at county level, you need to prepare wickets were a result is likely and it's so easy to be scared of giving the opponents an advantage so in the end you go one of two ways

Make the wickets substandard from ball one so noone can survive or alternatively make it like a road so it lasts the game and there's no result, the draw isn't worth it in county cricket though. In the end it didn't do what was intended and had to be abandoned.

At international level unintended consequences would undoubtedly happen. Home teams don't want two day tests but frightened the lack of a toss would confer too much of an advantage to the tourists, would instruct the groundsman to prepare something that lasts for both sides.

Of course this would be a disaster, wickets would be roads with little deterioration so batting last is ok. High scoring draws the norm and boredom all round, not a solution.

I think most of the time the status quo is acceptable, but with Covid and India losing the first at the same ground, the inevitable happened. This wicket was poorly prepared because they wanted it to deteriorate early on. They believed they had the team to exploit a dreadful turning wicket even if artificially created. India needed the toss to go their way to guarantee winning but thought they stood a chance if not, but while England's spinners are clearly not of the same standard they are definitely good enough to exploit a massive advantage as the first test showed.

Monitored preparation may be an answer to prepare standard wickets that maintain their character, so turners in India, seamers England and hard and bouncy Australia, but aren't so blatantly prepared to make result wickets

This test could be over in three days maximum if India bothered to enforce, but conditions and heat say they'll bat again no matter, you just don't enforce in India. So maybe four days but horribly one sided - tomorrow will be impossible never mind later.

Michael Vaughan reckons while the total of say 350 might look smaller than 580, it's at least as formidable and because the wicket is that much worse makes winning the toss even more of an advantage than the first test. (admittedly it is Vaughany the controversial rent a quote specialist).

Agree that the worst thing would be bland pitches with tedious high scoring draws. Monitored preparation sounds reasonable but for me test cricket is fine as it is. There's been plenty of exciting games recently and India are fresh from winning in Australia, chasing down a big score at Australia's banker ground, The Gabba, to win the series; and West Indies won the 1st test in Bangladesh batting second, with heroic performances from new players like Kyle Mahers and Nkrumah Bonner.

Maybe someone will step up for England in this game, or maybe Joe Root can reproduce his 1st test heroics. Both difficult, but possible. If Jadeja was playing alongside Ashwin I'd say no chance but Patel is making his debut and Kuldeep Yadav is playing his first test in over 12 months - both will be nervous. Bumrah is resting.

Back to the 1st day here, great entertainment with 300 runs and 6 wickets but for me England have given away 30 or 40 soft runs, mainly from Moeen full-tosses and long hops, though it wasn't easy for him with Rohit in such fine form. Moeen has never been a containing bowler, but he was too loose today. Root, who bowls flatter, should have bowled himself earlier as, with the ball turning already, you don't need to toss it up as much. Strange also that Stokes only bowled two overs. Stone deservedly given the 2nd new ball ahead of Broad. Need to get Pant quickly tomorrow - I'll be up early to watch!

 

[Chris O'Connor]

Agree that the worst thing would be bland pitches with tedious high scoring draws. Monitored preparation sounds reasonable but for me test cricket is fine as it is. There's been plenty of exciting games recently and India are fresh from winning in Australia, chasing down a big score at Australia's banker ground, The Gabba, to win the series; and West Indies won the 1st test in Bangladesh batting second, with heroic performances from new players like Kyle Mahers and Nkrumah Bonner.

Maybe someone will step up for England in this game, or maybe Joe Root can reproduce his 1st test heroics. Both difficult, but possible. If Jadeja was playing alongside Ashwin I'd say no chance but Patel is making his debut and Kuldeep Yadav is playing his first test in over 12 months - both will be nervous. Bumrah is resting.

Back to the 1st day here, great entertainment with 300 runs and 6 wickets but for me England have given away 30 or 40 soft runs, mainly from Moeen full-tosses and long hops, though it wasn't easy for him with Rohit in such fine form. Moeen has never been a containing bowler, but he was too loose today. Root, who bowls flatter, should have bowled himself earlier as, with the ball turning already, you don't need to toss it up as much. Strange also that Stokes only bowled two overs. Stone deservedly given the 2nd new ball ahead of Broad. Need to get Pant quickly tomorrow - I'll be up early to watch!

Stokes was limping and apparently either not risked further or just not able to bowl anymore

 

[summerisle]

Two wickets in three balls for Moeen, 301-8. Pant still there, 37, new ball available.

 

[summerisle]

Good performance from England, India all out for 329, Olly Stone with the last two wickets in five balls.

 

[summerisle]

Oh dear, Burns out for a duck, England 7-1.