Cricket

Chris O'Connor said:
What essentially it boils down to is the teams are sufficiently close for no Sri Lanka scenario to be remotely likely.

Yes India are better equipped with their spinners but because England have their big players in top form they are sufficiently close to make the toss decisive in these conditions.

You rarely get tosses being so important in England, they can give an advantage but it's nowhere near as decisive

Normally India are that much better than the opposition in home conditions that they are capable of winning against the toss but I just don't see that here
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Ok fair points. To counter;
1) Is there anything that can be done to counter this. It's hot and dry in the subcontinent. Pitches deteriorate.
2) Again I'll keep using Headingley, where we have seen sides bundled out for under 100 semi regularly on green tops on the first morning (and other grounds too). Is there a difference or a qualitative difference between that and India?
3) If there is, do we have a problem with the toss being so important? Of course India are better equipped to deal with losing the toss, as they are the home team. Just as on a overcast day, on a green top England are theoretically better at dealing with the swinging ball being aided by lots of seam movement.

I mean to me there are two different questions here. The first is home advantage, the second is the importance of the toss. I am assuming you are against teams havign home advantages (specidically big ones) and the toss being so important. Is that a fair summary?
 
Chris O'Connor said:
Apologies for some repetition.....Ran out of time with the last response but meant to say

England don't need to beat themselves 80% of the time but I get your meaning.

Yes India at home would normally beat England far more than the reverse, just as England almost always win home test series by big margins. The difference on home bias pitches though just doesn't stand up. Both countries have natural wickets that are either turners as in India or far more for seamers as in England. That's the same as anywhere, Australia have hard bouncy wickets etc etc.

Headingley is largely dependant on overheads as much as any wicket preparation, there's nothing you can do about the weather - that's a real red herring.

This wicket does so heavily favour winning the toss that it's not really a contest, India are equipped to be more competitive when losing a toss but they would be hugely unlikely to stop the inevitable here had they done so.

If there's a massive difference in skill sets between the sides as in Sri Lanka then the away side can win against all reason and all the odds, it takes huge incompetence to do so, something the home side had in spades.

In the past there has been this difference in India, and India could win against the toss although even last tour they just hung on in the first test. It's not always been the case as relatively recently Swann and Panesar were just too good for them and England won under Andrew Strauss.

Here while our spinners are nowhere near as good Ashwin, our batsmen and star performers are. Joe Root has been exceptional, Jimmy Anderson the best seamer and Jofra Archer a quick and dangerous, Jos Buttler too kept beautifully and contributed with the bat while Stokes is Stokes a one in s million. The spinners did a job despite their deficiencies but in hugely helpful conditions.

The main action took place before a ball was bowled, yes there are god performances but the crucial bit was which way the coin landed, it was right there that the result was decided.
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Don't worry abot the repitition.

I mean for clarity on the point, in India, if both teams win 50% of tosses I'd imagine India win 80/20. In England I'd imagine England win 60/40. On a neutral ground probably 60/40 England.

The toss makes it very difficult. My point would be that it makes the game more even on the occasions England win the toss.

I'm going to assume you are against tosses giving such an advantage? If so, how are you going to tackle it though? Just as with Headingley it has it's weather, so too you have weather in India. It's hot and dry, and it leads to pitches crumbling. I'm not sure what the answer is.

For me, you know the conditions when you go to play. You have to adjust accordingly, and the best players/teams do. I am really not in favour of an approach that writes a game off before a ball is bowled. As I said abotu an hour again, England are bowling really well here. It' topped reversing but it's spinnng lots, but England spinners to me have bowled very nicely. We could conceivably get them out for under 300 and be right in the game here.
 
catcherintherye said:
Don't worry abot the repitition.

I mean for clarity on the point, in India, if both teams win 50% of tosses I'd imagine India win 80/20. In England I'd imagine England win 60/40. On a neutral ground probably 60/40 England.

The toss makes it very difficult. My point would be that it makes the game more even on the occasions England win the toss.

I'm going to assume you are against tosses giving such an advantage? If so, how are you going to tackle it though? Just as with Headingley it has it's weather, so too you have weather in India. It's hot and dry, and it leads to pitches crumbling. I'm not sure what the answer is.

For me, you know the conditions when you go to play. You have to adjust accordingly, and the best players/teams do. I am really not in favour of an approach that writes a game off before a ball is bowled. As I said abotu an hour again, England are bowling really well here. It' topped reversing but it's spinnng lots, but England spinners to me have bowled very nicely. We could conceivably get them out for under 300 and be right in the game here.
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A small point to start

No there just is no equivalence whatsoever on weather, in india it is hot almost all the time at the traditional venues.

In England it can be hot, cold, wet, dry or steaming hot all on the same day anytime anywhere almost all the time.

In England the weather is variable even in summertime, in India's traditional venues in their test playing season it just isn't anything remotely like variable. I think I've detected a difference between the two tbh :).

I wouldn't argue over percentages in India, India are a formidable force at home and have the weapons to demolish most sides at home, the last three tours and the one test here have an aggregate score India 6 England 3, so discounting draws a win percentage in India of :- India 66% - England 33%

- their away record in England has been pretty deplorable for the last three tours losing almost every test (won 2 lost 11) discounting draws, a win percentage in England of :- England 82% - India 18%

Andrew Strauss made the point that this is now looking like a day four wicket which virtually is game over. Kohli said he expected the first morning and into the afternoon section to be by far the only time to bat as it should go quickly. This is a toss you HAD to win to have any chance at all and that applies to India too, such is the wicket.

I can give you the result now as no innings after this will be of much consequence, England may not even save the notional follow on target, even if India declared now not that I think enforcement is likely anyway, as you just don't in India and why would you?
 
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