Cricket

The big booming drives and wafts were like the England batsman thought they were in the Big Bash. The England batting lineup didn't want to value their wicket.

England need to get back to basics. Pick your best 5 batsmen. Pick your best all-rounder. Pick your best keeper-batsman. Pick your best 4 bowlers.

They are utterly screwed when Anderson retires. Because they'll have no bowlers as well as no batsmen.
 
Quite a hammering that. That's the price you pay when you underestimate the opposition. The series win puts the Windies well and truly back on the test stage again which is great to see.
 
PITA said:
Explain this innings.
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I'll be truthful PITA .. And offer some observations

I really can't comment in detail on today as I didn't see too much of it, with going to the match and watching a whole recording of the later rugby union which has always been, with cricket, my favourite sport, I'll instead offer some observations on seeing the press reports.

it really was dreadful, a truly feeble effort and predictable collapse.

There are no excuses or reasons that can come anywhere near adequately explaining why a side collapses in such a fashion, and absolutely it just isn't good enough.

However you really can't put aside what has gone on previously in the first two days and say it had no influence whatsoever on today's pathetic performance. That the tosses weren't important, that the tone hadn't been set in those two days and the match all but won already.

Just like the first test the match WAS to all intents and purposes decided within the first two days, not today, but before today. It is not beyond possibility that a side could have rescued the situation today but highly unlikely, overnight facing a likely deficit of well over a hundred in what was always likely to be a relatively low scoring match, was to all intents and purposes fairly hopeless, it was already over, and the match already gone. Yes there should be guts and fight shown, application and determination but it's highly unlikely any dominant side would relinquish such dominance anyway.

Don't get me wrong none of this excuses or mitigates against poor cricket with no real application or effort shown, it doesn't, but the psychology of teams' does get affected if one team is right on top, confident and buoyant, while the other is desperately trying to mount a fairly unlikely rescue, it's human nature and it takes supreme talent AND a really strong character to fight back against such pressure and odds, both in the physical and mental sense.

It's far easier batting second after the opposition has failed badly or even miserably, whatever the circumstances why, than it is to face a daunting first innings deficit when you start batting second time around. It's extremely rare in any test match for one side to gain such a supremely dominant winning position and still be overcome. Sides' heads do drop and winning sides are confident and think and play at the top of their game when their confidence is so high.

It's important to recognise how this came about, how the tone had been set and how one team had come to be in so dominant a position and one team so far behind the eight ball. The first two days were crucial in bringing this state of affairs about and the toss was absolutely decisive in it too. Both captains would have bowled for a reason, and that is precisely because it would confer such a dominant advantage.

Although at no time thereafter was it was ever easy for batting on, the wicket in that morning session of day one was seriously substandard, it really was, not every ball but enough to make batting on it a complete lottery. It did improve as day one went on and day two was much better as apparently was today.

The conditions of the wicket in that morning session were never repeated, the wicket eased up and although never easy was never anything like so bad again.

So of course today there is no excuse, but I've tried to give context to how the match had developed. It's getting in that supreme position of dominance that is so vital, and it's those initial events that deflates the other side's spirit, confidence and morale so that the match takes the course that it does, and the largely predictable events of one team dominating the other follow thereafter.

In the case of these last two tests, they have been very much result wickets, the tests have moved on at a pace, and everything virtually decided by the end of day two. In other tests this process does take far longer and day three, four and five can all be closely contested, however in these two tests the first two days have done so.

The toss in the first test did have a major effect but the one in this test was a lot more decisive. The effort and application put in following the first two days in both tests was nothing short of pathetic, even if events were largely irrelevant to the eventual likely outcome imo, make no mistake both tests had been decided by the end of day two.
 
Chris O'Connor said:
I'll be truthful PITA .. And offer some observations

I really can't comment in detail on today as I didn't see too much of it, with going to the match and watching a whole recording of the later rugby union which has always been, with cricket, my favourite sport, I'll instead offer some observations on seeing the press reports.

it really was dreadful, a truly feeble effort and predictable collapse.

There are no excuses or reasons that can come anywhere near adequately explaining why a side collapses in such a fashion, and absolutely it just isn't good enough.

However you really can't put aside what has gone on previously in the first two days and say it had no influence whatsoever on today's pathetic performance. That the tosses weren't important, that the tone hadn't been set in those two days and the match all but won already.

Just like the first test the match WAS to all intents and purposes decided within the first two days, not today, but before today. It is not beyond possibility that a side could have rescued the situation today but highly unlikely, overnight facing a likely deficit of well over a hundred in what was always likely to be a relatively low scoring match, was to all intents and purposes fairly hopeless, it was already over, and the match already gone. Yes there should be guts and fight shown, application and determination but it's highly unlikely any dominant side would relinquish such dominance anyway.

Don't get me wrong none of this excuses or mitigates against poor cricket with no real application or effort shown, it doesn't, but the psychology of teams' does get affected if one team is right on top, confident and buoyant, while the other is desperately trying to mount a fairly unlikely rescue, it's human nature and it takes supreme talent AND a really strong character to fight back against such pressure and odds, both in the physical and mental sense.

It's far easier batting second after the opposition has failed badly or even miserably, whatever the circumstances why, than it is to face a daunting first innings deficit when you start batting second time around. It's extremely rare in any test match for one side to gain such a supremely dominant winning position and still be overcome. Sides' heads do drop and winning sides are confident and think and play at the top of their game when their confidence is so high.

It's important to recognise how this came about, how the tone had been set and how one team had come to be in so dominant a position and one team so far behind the eight ball. The first two days were crucial in bringing this state of affairs about and the toss was absolutely decisive in it too. Both captains would have bowled for a reason, and that is precisely because it would confer such a dominant advantage.

Although at no time thereafter was it was ever easy for batting on, the wicket in that morning session of day one was seriously substandard, it really was, not every ball but enough to make batting on it a complete lottery. It did improve as day one went on and day two was much better as apparently was today.

The conditions of the wicket in that morning session were never repeated, the wicket eased up and although never easy was never anything like so bad again.

So of course today there is no excuse, but I've tried to give context to how the match had developed. It's getting in that supreme position of dominance that is so vital, and it's those initial events that deflates the other side's spirit, confidence and morale so that the match takes the course that it does, and the largely predictable events of one team dominating the other follow thereafter.

In the case of these last two tests, they have been very much result wickets, the tests have moved on at a pace, and everything virtually decided by the end of day two. In other tests this process does take far longer and day three, four and five can all be closely contested, however in these two tests the first two days have done so.

The toss in the first test did have a major effect but the one in this test was a lot more decisive. The effort and application put in following the first two days in both tests was nothing short of pathetic, even if events were largely irrelevant to the eventual likely outcome imo, make no mistake both tests had been decided by the end of day two.
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Bring the boys home. It's truly embarrassing.
 
Playing down just how promising and bursting with talent and potential this relatively young West Indian side is, is a trap very easily fallen into. The rankings are virtually meaningless when they are based on the results derived on slow or turning wickets either abroad or in recent times even at home. Such wickets negate all the strengths of this attack and their batting has been a major problem for some time.

Although this tour represents the first time this side have made enough, and more than enough runs, have really held it all together so well, this is no complete fluke, their attack has been able to boast real pace, hostility and real menace on quick tracks for some time, this team always had the potential for something like this, but were time and again again seriously let down by their batting.

Their batting up to this point has never been good enough to make enough runs to give their bowlers a chance.

Now in the shape of youngsters and slightly more experienced batters from Braithwaite, Campbell, Hope, Chase and for me the real youngster of immense promise in Hetmyer, they have a nucleus of batsmen that can develop something special to make those runs in support of the real stars, their bowlers. Add in the experience of Bravo and a team well led on the field by Holder who hasn't put a foot wrong in this series and you have something.

The seriously quick pacemen in Gabriel and the developing young Joseph, aided by the skilfully executed seam of Roach and supported by Holder's swing and ability to shape the ball will, given quick and bouncy surfaces, cause even the best of batting sides huge headaches. It can be fast, hostile and intimidating, this attack is developing and will get even better, it will be a real force in the right conditions.

In the past West Indies have been let down by the continual mismanagement from their board. Add to this the relatively puny financial rewards to be gained from representing the islands compared to the immense wealth available from franchise cricket around the world, and you can see why their major stars have all made the switch to the T20 millions as soon as they are marketable.

Its a continuing problem for cricket in the West Indies, as soon as they discover potential and have the makings of a fine side, one, two and possibly six or seven disappear to the IPL or Big Bash to make their name and fortune. It is not something that is wrong or to be condemned, far from it, this is their chance to be really known by far more cricket following fans across the world and become extremely wealthy at the same time, of course they should go why shouldn't they?

Unfortunately though, its been the story of Caribbean cricket in the decades of decline since their heyday way back in the 80s, thirty years ago, before most of these cricketers were even born.

It's ridiculous to keep saying they are not Michael Holding or Malcolm Marshall, Joe Root is not Sir Jack Hobbs and Steve Smith not Sir Donald Bradman either, that generation has long gone, it won't come back and comparisons are absolutely ludicrous imo.

This side has potential, given quick wickets and supported by young batsmen who may, only now, at last be beginning to fulfil their promise, these West Indians could become a real force again right at the top of the game. The tragedy for their board is that if this side does continue on a marked upward trajectory, its likely to be broken up in the same way any others of a similar ilk have in the past.

This series has given the West Indians something to be hugely proud of, this team has come of age, it's to be hoped that it is able to develop and revitalise test cricket in this traditional bastion of the game, but unfortunately the odds must be hugely against that happening.
 
arminisgod said:
our batting line up is truly woeful and has been for 5 years
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Very easy to lose sight of the fact we still beat the number one ranked team 4-1 and won eight from the last nine tests prior to the last two including the historic 0-3 away whitewash for only the third time in the whole history of English cricket.

Winning in home conditions and winning away, especially if it involves losing very important tosses too, are so different.

It is very difficult for even top ranked teams to win regularly away from home.

The number one ranked team India has lost to England 4-1 and South Africa 2-1 in the last year as it found conditions suited the home side more.

Most home sides will not make conditions suitable for England but make them suit their own bowlers more.

England's batting has suffered problems at the top of the order for some time but has generally been pulled round by the sheer weight of all rounders and just how deep down they bat.

The fact they have been seriously up against it this tour and lost both very important tosses, has exposed them badly. They aren't the first team to find winning away from home difficult and did have remarkable success in Sri Lanka who are rated higher than the West Indies.

One really poor series doesn't erase what went on in beating Sri Lanka and India so comprehensively and their batting was good enough then
 
Joe Root has had a poor time in this series at number four. The captain moved back to No 4 in the final Test against India last summer and scored a century in that match, following it up two games later with 124 in Kandy as England took a 2-0 series lead over Sri Lanka.

With Bairstow struggling to curb his attacking instincts so high in the order - as well as possibly keeping wicket in this test, a move back to three for Root is being contemplated once again as they try and mould room for possible ashes berths for James Vince - as an opener, and Jack Clarke at three.

Looking longer term to the Ashes, it is understood England are keen to see Clarke bat at three this summer for his new county, Nottinghamshire, and would like Vince to experiment as an opener for Hampshire.
 
arminisgod said:
let's be honest, we got very lucky with the toss in both of those series, plus Sri Lanka are crap
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You can't say England were lucky with the toss in one series and virtually ignore it's effect in the following.

The toss in Sri Lanka was certainly helpful, but the tosses in this series were far more vital and the one in the second the West Indies test was so important it was match winning..

Sri Lanka are rated higher than the Windies and are therefore at least on a par with them

It's all selective use of what suits
 

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