toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
How an earth can a pitch go from 18 wickets on day two to no wickets on day 3? Extraordinary
Cricket
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Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Incentive and meaning are key, England other than their openers now have very little of either, the result was 99% decided after day two.
Glorified net.
toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
Yep, it does annoy me that England get a decent score when it never actually matters.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
We lost the game in collapsing to such a paltry score as 77, whatever the conditions and suitability for their attack or just how well they exploited it, there is no excuse for that, we shouldn't ever collapse quite so badly as that 42-2 to 47-7 * (* not checked accuracy) in an hour is appalling and a real reality check for our batsmen.
At that point the match was gone. You can't win a match in one session but you can definitely lose one.
Yesterday was poor cricket but in a way understandable as there would be no way back whatever happened on day three.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
After the first three days there was some puzzlement as to why sixteen wickets can fall on day two and none at all yesterday. But its perhaps more salient to look at events before that.
For all the very obvious flaws with selection that hindsight has given us, and that has just looked even worse as the game went on, is it really the biggest factor in our defeat? Our batting performance was just so poor and the collapse so sudden, brutal and devastating that for me ten Broads may have struggled to make any difference.
We lost the game in collapsing to such a paltry score as 77! Whatever the conditions and suitability for their attack or just how well they exploited it, there is no excuse for that, we shouldn't ever collapse quite so badly as that, 44-2 to 49-7 in just under 9 overs, a game deciding phase, an hour as appalling as it gets and a real reality check for our batsmen.
At that point the match was gone. You can't win a match in one session but you can certainly lose one.
Yesterday was poor cricket but in a way understandable as there would be no way back whatever happened on day three. They shouldn't have so overused Stokes either, 50 overs represents a real risk of burn out and injury, Flintoff has been there before and to risk Stokes going the same way in chasing a futile cause was criminal. They should have just bowled Root and Jennings or other part timers, the game was lost.
Incentive and meaning were key to yesterday, England, other than their openers playing for their future, have very little of either, the result was 99% decided after day two.
Yesterday was in effect a glorified net, and although the intention may have been to still compete, that vital and much needed edge had gone when the match was lost.
For all the very obvious flaws with selection that hindsight has given us, and that has just looked even worse as the game went on, is it really the biggest factor in our defeat? Our batting performance was just so poor and the collapse so sudden, brutal and devastating that for me ten Broads may have struggled to make any difference.
We lost the game in collapsing to such a paltry score as 77! Whatever the conditions and suitability for their attack or just how well they exploited it, there is no excuse for that, we shouldn't ever collapse quite so badly as that, 44-2 to 49-7 in just under 9 overs, a game deciding phase, an hour as appalling as it gets and a real reality check for our batsmen.
At that point the match was gone. You can't win a match in one session but you can certainly lose one.
Yesterday was poor cricket but in a way understandable as there would be no way back whatever happened on day three. They shouldn't have so overused Stokes either, 50 overs represents a real risk of burn out and injury, Flintoff has been there before and to risk Stokes going the same way in chasing a futile cause was criminal. They should have just bowled Root and Jennings or other part timers, the game was lost.
Incentive and meaning were key to yesterday, England, other than their openers playing for their future, have very little of either, the result was 99% decided after day two.
Yesterday was in effect a glorified net, and although the intention may have been to still compete, that vital and much needed edge had gone when the match was lost.
toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
scoring more for the first wicket than for the whole first innings, but one down.
Frang
Player Valuation: £70m
everton THAT
toffeejack
Player Valuation: £100m
Was thinking yesterday how I'd be happy if they took the captaincy off root and just let him get back to batting, but there's no real candidates. Anderson would be, but that would we pointless long term. Stokes is one who I actually think would raise their game a level. Everybody else is in and out of the team.
Suppose long term its correct, but his batting has really suffered it seems.
Suppose long term its correct, but his batting has really suffered it seems.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Root is developing as a captain, you can't panic and make big changes after a match in which we really failed completely, we were poor in virtually every department.
77 is the reason we lost, forget day three and day four they're largely irrelevant. The effect 77 has on a dressing room is devastating there is no way back.
On the same basis it's the first two days were they should look for who won it for West Indies, forget Chase today, he didn't win it, and neither did Holder's double century. For me it was Kemar Roach with the ball and young Hetmyer's 81 in tough conditions with the bat, they were the match winning contributions.
There is only Anderson and Stokes who came out of this game with any credit at all on those first two days and Burns belatedly today when it hardly mattered to the match, although it did to his future prospects.
There was a great piece on the continuing woes of Keaton Jennings from Collingwood and Rob Key.
Colly comparing him to Trescothick in both physique and character and comparing the two to see where he's not correct with his weight on hitting the ball.
Just a higher back lift would get his shoulder turned more and bring his weight into the shot instead of half back with a too open shoulder as of now.
Fascinating how just a small tweak could have him right, not as simple as that mentally and for any batsman to change even a small amount, but his current one doesn't work.
Keysey reckoning Jason Roy should be here and thinks he should feature in the ashes with Burns.
77 is the reason we lost, forget day three and day four they're largely irrelevant. The effect 77 has on a dressing room is devastating there is no way back.
On the same basis it's the first two days were they should look for who won it for West Indies, forget Chase today, he didn't win it, and neither did Holder's double century. For me it was Kemar Roach with the ball and young Hetmyer's 81 in tough conditions with the bat, they were the match winning contributions.
There is only Anderson and Stokes who came out of this game with any credit at all on those first two days and Burns belatedly today when it hardly mattered to the match, although it did to his future prospects.
There was a great piece on the continuing woes of Keaton Jennings from Collingwood and Rob Key.
Colly comparing him to Trescothick in both physique and character and comparing the two to see where he's not correct with his weight on hitting the ball.
Just a higher back lift would get his shoulder turned more and bring his weight into the shot instead of half back with a too open shoulder as of now.
Fascinating how just a small tweak could have him right, not as simple as that mentally and for any batsman to change even a small amount, but his current one doesn't work.
Keysey reckoning Jason Roy should be here and thinks he should feature in the ashes with Burns.
Minimeister
Player Valuation: £35m
One position at the top does not excuse an absolute pathetic total from so called superstar batsmen. There's something much deeper wrong that the Sri Lanka result shouldn't paper over.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
OR there isn't something deeper wrong at all
it's winning the next test match that matters and building on this sides' recent successes by playing to the top of their abilities.
Unfortunately they are still not consistent enough, and on occasions lose very badly indeed. They need to learn but not dwell on it too long, as in the summer against Pakistan, lose one very badly and then reply by absolutely dominating the next with virtually the same team, or with India, after losing the third test, reply by winning the very next one. The last home ashes was much the same, lose one, win the next. That consistency isn't there, it may be getting better with seven wins from the last nine but its not there yet. This was a rude awakening, a huge reality check.
They didn't change dramatically after the huge setbacks against Pakistan or India, they just changed their attitude and application and either dominated or won the next match. You don't become a poor team after one dismal performance, you don't win seven out of nine by being not fit for purpose. You don't beat India 4-1 by being desperately inadequate and useless.
Turn up and win is what's needed, they've shown how well they can bounce back time and again, they need to show character and do precisely that again.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
For me it's the job of the management to plot and plan and they still have a glaring problem up the top of the order, Burns looks the part and scored his second fifty today, it's a pity he didnt take a real opportunity to go on and nail his place as England need him to be secure as the problem is his partner Keaton Jennings.
Jennings cannot be an Ashes contender given he now averages 16 against seam and his limitations against it surely cannot be tolerated for much longer. Out driving in the first innings, he tried his best to leave everything on Saturday morning but with 14 off 84 balls he was batting in a dark alley waiting to be mugged.
It helps him that England have such few options. Joe Denly is the spare batsman but has not looked convincing in the tour matches this winter, making the decision to overlook Jason Roy having encouraged him to play four-day cricket for the Lions before Christmas look particularly odd. So Jennings probably survives but Antigua should be it if he does not improve. Denly can hardly do any worse.
Jennings cannot be an Ashes contender given he now averages 16 against seam and his limitations against it surely cannot be tolerated for much longer. Out driving in the first innings, he tried his best to leave everything on Saturday morning but with 14 off 84 balls he was batting in a dark alley waiting to be mugged.
It helps him that England have such few options. Joe Denly is the spare batsman but has not looked convincing in the tour matches this winter, making the decision to overlook Jason Roy having encouraged him to play four-day cricket for the Lions before Christmas look particularly odd. So Jennings probably survives but Antigua should be it if he does not improve. Denly can hardly do any worse.
Give hales a go
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
England will ponder changes "in a number of positions" following their first Test thrashing in Barbados, with head coach Trevor Bayliss admitting opener Keaton Jennings is increasingly vulnerable.
After winning eight of the previous nine matches, including a rare overseas whitewash of Sri Lanka, we've had a car crash of a test match with the 381-run massacre by the West indies.
The batsmen were largely responsible, being bowled out for 77 in the first innings while our own attack looked ill-judged, with Adil Rashid and Sam Curran failing to justify their selections.
Bayliss will sit down with the selector, Ed Smith, and the captain, Joe Root, after the team land in Antigua on Monday to discuss options for Thursday’s second Test.
“I’m speechless,” said Bayliss, “I think it gets down to a bit of guts and determination to get through those tough periods. They bowled extremely well against us but we have got to be able to deal with it.”
At the moment Keaton Jennings just hasn't the technique to cope with quality seam bowling. He looks stiff and stilted in his movements, but in some ways does not look too dissimilar to Marcus Trescothick, as Paul Collingwood's analysis showed, it may actually be an extremely slight change that sets him right. A higher backlift worked for Bairstow and similar could for Jennings. However, trigger movements are necessarily altered too, hours of practice are thus needed and time not unlimited.
“Keaton is struggling a little bit,” Bayliss said. “You could look at it and say they’ve put on 85, our best opening partnership. And it takes two guys to tango. I’d be lying if I said we’re not worried about it and I’d be lying if I said he hadn’t been thinking about it.”
"He's one of the hardest workers we've got and he's going to leave no stone unturned in making it better. Let's wait and see."
On the two-spinner, three-seamer balance and Jimmy Anderson and Ben Stokes being bowled into the ground as Sam Curran, Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid struggled, Bayliss added
“You make those decisions thinking the five guys you pick are going to bowl as well as we know they can do. Take Stokes and Anderson out, maybe one spell of Moeen, and we were far from our best in this match. We have a bit of work to do there.
“It was down to Curran or Broad. The gut feel was Curran; he has done well for us over the last seven games. It didn’t work out like that, the young bloke has had his first bad Test in his career. It won’t be his last but he’s a good young player who will learn from it.”
Stuart Broad appears highly likely to return at the Sir Vivian Richards Stadium, his surprise omission in Bridgetown failing to pay off, while pace pair Chris Woakes and Mark Wood, and left-arm spinner Jack Leach will also be looking for a chance.
It was, though, the batting that let England down most in the series opener and Jennings is under most pressure, with knocks of 17 and 14 dragging his Test average down to 25.86.
"We will have some thinking to do in a number of positions," he said. "Every time we lose a wicket it [feels like] the beginning of a collapse.
"We will sit down, have a chat with the guys and try to get to the bottom of it. It's not the first time that we've succumbed in a short space of time. The boys are in the dressing room hurting, I'd be worried if they weren't.
England have had the happy habit in recent times of bouncing back immediately, and sometimes spectacularly too. It really only took a change of attitude and approach then, and Bayliss like Root will be wanting to repeat that here.
After winning eight of the previous nine matches, including a rare overseas whitewash of Sri Lanka, we've had a car crash of a test match with the 381-run massacre by the West indies.
The batsmen were largely responsible, being bowled out for 77 in the first innings while our own attack looked ill-judged, with Adil Rashid and Sam Curran failing to justify their selections.
Bayliss will sit down with the selector, Ed Smith, and the captain, Joe Root, after the team land in Antigua on Monday to discuss options for Thursday’s second Test.
“I’m speechless,” said Bayliss, “I think it gets down to a bit of guts and determination to get through those tough periods. They bowled extremely well against us but we have got to be able to deal with it.”
At the moment Keaton Jennings just hasn't the technique to cope with quality seam bowling. He looks stiff and stilted in his movements, but in some ways does not look too dissimilar to Marcus Trescothick, as Paul Collingwood's analysis showed, it may actually be an extremely slight change that sets him right. A higher backlift worked for Bairstow and similar could for Jennings. However, trigger movements are necessarily altered too, hours of practice are thus needed and time not unlimited.
“Keaton is struggling a little bit,” Bayliss said. “You could look at it and say they’ve put on 85, our best opening partnership. And it takes two guys to tango. I’d be lying if I said we’re not worried about it and I’d be lying if I said he hadn’t been thinking about it.”
"He's one of the hardest workers we've got and he's going to leave no stone unturned in making it better. Let's wait and see."
On the two-spinner, three-seamer balance and Jimmy Anderson and Ben Stokes being bowled into the ground as Sam Curran, Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid struggled, Bayliss added
“You make those decisions thinking the five guys you pick are going to bowl as well as we know they can do. Take Stokes and Anderson out, maybe one spell of Moeen, and we were far from our best in this match. We have a bit of work to do there.
“It was down to Curran or Broad. The gut feel was Curran; he has done well for us over the last seven games. It didn’t work out like that, the young bloke has had his first bad Test in his career. It won’t be his last but he’s a good young player who will learn from it.”
Stuart Broad appears highly likely to return at the Sir Vivian Richards Stadium, his surprise omission in Bridgetown failing to pay off, while pace pair Chris Woakes and Mark Wood, and left-arm spinner Jack Leach will also be looking for a chance.
It was, though, the batting that let England down most in the series opener and Jennings is under most pressure, with knocks of 17 and 14 dragging his Test average down to 25.86.
"We will have some thinking to do in a number of positions," he said. "Every time we lose a wicket it [feels like] the beginning of a collapse.
"We will sit down, have a chat with the guys and try to get to the bottom of it. It's not the first time that we've succumbed in a short space of time. The boys are in the dressing room hurting, I'd be worried if they weren't.
England have had the happy habit in recent times of bouncing back immediately, and sometimes spectacularly too. It really only took a change of attitude and approach then, and Bayliss like Root will be wanting to repeat that here.