Could this be 94/95 the sequel?

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Walker did bring in some quality players (Parkinson, Limpar and I liked Amokachi too), he was just too weak and the players never seemed to have any real passion or spark. I think we are certainly missing that spirit and aggression currently so I can see that similarity. I think Martinez viewing everything as phenomenal is not good, even if it is just for the cameras. At first it gives you a lift, but eventually you need to have a balanced view, this is what the fans feed off. The atmosphere at the ground is flat at the moment :(

It's a hard one for Martinez really. I think people really took to Martinez's positivity at first, particularly as Moyes tended to air on the side of cautious pessimism. In everything though the best managers tend to find a balance.

Martinez's optimism is both a strength and weakness, but I can understand how it begins to get grating for people. I think the bigger worry one would have though is whether that lets players off the hook a bit. Maybe a culture of making defensive lapses but being patted on the back and being told we "are doing the right things" means people don't fear conceding a goal as we may have done under Moyes. Martinez has openly said he's not scared of making mistakes as long as we learn from them, but too many people making too many mistakes can mean you are in too difficult a situation before you start to learn from your mistakes. I supposed it's the trade off to having players liker Barkley included and encouraged.

What is prescient about this thread and about your post though is that there are similarities. It's not that we stopped playing good football under Royle, but we brought in a counter balance. We recognised our weaknesses and rectified them. (Watson was too easy to get at and lacked pace, Southall looked a bit ropey and people played through our midfield). We placed Parkinson/Horne/Ebrell infront of the back four, Hincliffe played a bit at wide left which allowed players like Limpar and Stuart to flourish further up the pitch. It also meant Watson was "got at" less and he could focus on what he was good at.

I think we need a similar evaluation with the current squad. For most of last season I advocated moving Baines/Coleman into Midfield and playing more defensive fullbacks behind. Not to change how we played but I suppose to give us adequate protection to express ourselves. I think being more solid in wide areas would mean we defend less crosses and put less pressure on our centre halves to head balls away. Sometimes it's little changes that are not fashionable that allow people in your team to prosper.

For us to avoid slipping into a 94 style collapse we may need to re-evaluate the way we play, or at least the personnel to counter the managerial instincts.
 

It's a hard one for Martinez really. I think people really took to Martinez's positivity at first, particularly as Moyes tended to air on the side of cautious pessimism. In everything though the best managers tend to find a balance.

Martinez's optimism is both a strength and weakness, but I can understand how it begins to get grating for people. I think the bigger worry one would have though is whether that lets players off the hook a bit. Maybe a culture of making defensive lapses but being patted on the back and being told we "are doing the right things" means people don't fear conceding a goal as we may have done under Moyes. Martinez has openly said he's not scared of making mistakes as long as we learn from them, but too many people making too many mistakes can mean you are in too difficult a situation before you start to learn from your mistakes. I supposed it's the trade off to having players liker Barkley included and encouraged.

What is prescient about this thread and about your post though is that there are similarities. It's not that we stopped playing good football under Royle, but we brought in a counter balance. We recognised our weaknesses and rectified them. (Watson was too easy to get at and lacked pace, Southall looked a bit ropey and people played through our midfield). We placed Parkinson/Horne/Ebrell infront of the back four, Hincliffe played a bit at wide left which allowed players like Limpar and Stuart to flourish further up the pitch. It also meant Watson was "got at" less and he could focus on what he was good at.

I think we need a similar evaluation with the current squad. For most of last season I advocated moving Baines/Coleman into Midfield and playing more defensive fullbacks behind. Not to change how we played but I suppose to give us adequate protection to express ourselves. I think being more solid in wide areas would mean we defend less crosses and put less pressure on our centre halves to head balls away. Sometimes it's little changes that are not fashionable that allow people in your team to prosper.

For us to avoid slipping into a 94 style collapse we may need to re-evaluate the way we play, or at least the personnel to counter the managerial instincts.

I certainly did until he went as negative last season as Moyes ever was

Playing Barry every game despite being in terrible form
Taking the easy option in hauling Besic off everytime even if he was having a good game
Never going with two up top even when we're losing at home (last season)
Always playing two defensive mids at home. Changed this for a couple of games, played really well yet changed back again and after Saturday looks like he'll continue this despite having should have learned
Unfairly dropping Roubles
 
I certainly did until he went as negative last season as Moyes ever was

Playing Barry every game despite being in terrible form
Taking the easy option in hauling Besic off everytime even if he was having a good game
Never going with two up top even when we're losing at home (last season)
Always playing two defensive mids at home. Changed this for a couple of games, played really well yet changed back again and after Saturday looks like he'll continue this despite having should have learned
Unfairly dropping Roubles

I suppose I was referring to interviews after the game. We have gone from "knife to a gunfight" to describing Barkley and Stones as Englands best ever players. There must be a happy medium somewhere!

As regards the playing side of things I would tend to agree. I think it boils down to us being willing to find a system that works for us and give us the protection to compensate the attacking players. Barry probably overplayed last season and needs to be rotated more with Besic in some games.

The two up top thing I can go along with and maybe will become more important if Kone gets into some form. The right point is the dropping of Robles. I can find justification for most of the above, but putting Howard back in was a big mistake. Robles in keeping those 3 clean sheets had shown far better form that Howard had all season. He is a younger player and will go on to improve.

I also think, somewhat unfairly Robles has a cloud over him still. Had he given him until the end of the season (or until he made a cock up) we'd have at least found out if he would have the potential to be our number 1. At present we are still left in the unknown and and when Howard retires.
 
For me it was totally acceptable, would take that again this season, but fear we will be hovering above the relegation zone !!

You accept another season like that? Wow it seems some fans do set a very low standard nowadays. We are back to the late 90s.
 

Those old enough will remember how bad things were at the start of that season right up until the Duncan derby in November.

Things were bad, REALLY bad, we had an awful side full then. It just took a spark in the form of Joe Royle and Duncan to lift the place, the fans most importantly.

We are stale now. But who knows, there could be something around the corner because these things happen often when you least expect it.

We ended the season with the FA Cup and started the next with Andrei Kanchelskis in our side.

Sorry, just trying to be optimistic. I hate Gareth Barry.
Last bit about Barry ruined it.
 
Those old enough will remember how bad things were at the start of that season right up until the Duncan derby in November.

Things were bad, REALLY bad, we had an awful side full then. It just took a spark in the form of Joe Royle and Duncan to lift the place, the fans most importantly.

We are stale now. But who knows, there could be something around the corner because these things happen often when you least expect it.

We ended the season with the FA Cup and started the next with Andrei Kanchelskis in our side.

Sorry, just trying to be optimistic. I hate Gareth Barry.

Love the last couple of lines mate "Sorry, just trying to be optimistic. I hate Gareth Barry" it's like your optimism lasted a sentence and then Barry popped into your head and the rage returned!
 


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